Red Flower Society, the true villains of Book and the Sword

[flyingfox2002]

The Book and the Sword is written from the Han point of view so the Red Flower rebels are portrayed as "heros" while Emperor Qianlong is portrayed as a traitor to his own kind, but in actuality, the true villains of the story are the Red Flower Society buffoons.

They want to overthrow the Manchu government not because of any compassion for the masses or any wish to better the world. The reason they were willing to create chaos and cause the deaths of millions was one of bigotry, they did not want to be ruled by whom they considered "foreigners" or "barbarians." Under Qianlong's reign, China overall was a land of prosperity, people were living decently comfortable lives (as comfortable as peasants in Imperial China can ever expect), there was absolutely no need for revolt.

The RF Buffoons fool themselves and lie to everyone about being about righteousness and honor. Judging from Chief Buffoon Chan Ga Lok's willingness to sacrifice the life of an innocent girl who was neither Manchu or Han to achieve his purpose of manipulating his own brother into turning on the government, it is quite clear that these guys are hypocrites.

That is not to say the Qianlong character in the story is not a piece of donkey dung in his own right, but at least he does not pretend to be a man of honor.
That's why I always root for Qianlong to obliterate the Red Flower Society and execute CGL via the 5-Horse-pull-Body-Separation method.

[letalforever]

ok













ok

[Tazzy1972]

got tat off ur chest rather well

[Laviathan]

Well, the Red Flower members are in fact good people with the right intentions, they genuinely believe that they were doing the right thing.

But the sad thing is: they just have no clue.

They do not want to be ruled by the Manchus, and see the Qing reign as tyranny. But in fact, the corrupt government officials who wronged the Red Flower Society elites in the past were all of Han Chinese ethnicity. They do not realise that corruption and tyranny are inherent to the Chinese imperial system throughout history. People living during the reign of Qianlong were relatively fortunate compared to those living in previous dynasties, but the Red Flower heroes do not see that, they only see the injustice in their own era. Which is fine of course, but the way they want to fight this injustice is, again, clueless.

They obviously have no respect whatsoever for Qianlong as a person or as an emperor, for they see him as the head of the corrupt government. But, due to the fact that Qianlong is of Han origin, they are willing to let him remain the ruler of China, under the condition that he expell all Manchus and restore Han rule. This makes the cause of the Red Flower Society a total ethnic issue... "Qianlong is the Manchu emperor, and that makes him a tyrant! What? You mean he is a Han? Oh, in that case he is OK..." Instead of fighting against the government and overthrow the current regime, they try to use tricks to replace parts of the government, keep the current emperor and merely change the name of the dynasty.

So, I agree with Flying Fox. The Red Flower Society's cause is not to better the world, they are just trying to rename the world without changing the true contents. This makes their methods and goals naïve, single-minded and in a way, selfish.

[wkeej]

OT: Look at it from the modern perspective. is the situation like iraq? many iraqi are clueless why they are fighting against the americans. the reason is that while life may be better, they perhaps simply cannot stand the presence of a foreign cty telling them what to do.

[Carefree Assassin]

that doesnt stop the fact that the americans are arseholes

[Laviathan]

OT: Look at it from the modern perspective. is the situation like iraq? many iraqi are clueless why they are fighting against the americans. the reason is that while life may be better, they perhaps simply cannot stand the presence of a foreign cty telling them what to do.

The Iraqis are not trying to convince George W. Bush that he is in fact an Iraqi.

What they are trying makes much more sense than the Red Flower Society: they take up arms and fight a foreign force. The Red Flower Society is clueless because we readers cannot really understand what sense it makes to keep Qianlong while changing the dynasty.

It's like keeping Saddam as ruler while overthrowing his government.

[Han Solo]

The actions of the Red flower society can be defended on certain scales, namely they are able to change a whole nation without resorting to mass blood-letting. Saving the innocents from being caught being two armed forces. Surely that is laudable.

And the Manchu's are forever the invader in a Han chinese mind anyway, as certain restriction in chinese exist within the governing structure.

[Ken Cheng]

STAR WARS fans have had a similar discussion about whether or not it was the Rebel Alliance that was truly "evil" while the Empire were "innocent" victims: proponents of this position say that Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, and the other Rebels killed as many people on the first Death Star as the Empire did when it used the Death Star to destroy the planet Alderaan. Moreover, at least the Empire had the (dubious) reason of being a government trying to restore law and order against a lawless rebellion, while the Rebels were committing an act of political terrorism.

[Laviathan]

The actions of the Red flower society can be defended on certain scales, namely they are able to change a whole nation without resorting to mass blood-letting. Saving the innocents from being caught being two armed forces. Surely that is laudable.

Yes, but what exactly are they trying to change?

STAR WARS fans have had a similar discussion about whether or not it was the Rebel Alliance that was truly "evil" while the Empire were "innocent" victims: proponents of this position say that Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, and the other Rebels killed as many people on the first Death Star as the Empire did when it used the Death Star to destroy the planet Alderaan. Moreover, at least the Empire had the (dubious) reason of being a government trying to restore law and order against a lawless rebellion, while the Rebels were committing an act of political terrorism.

Yes, but in the case of the Red Flower Society: the rebels are trying to convince Emperor Palpatine to fire Darth Vader and Grand Moff Tarkin, and establish a " new" empire (again, with Palpatine as emperor).

[Han Solo]

The Red Flower society aimed to change the Qin dynasty to ensure greater or exclusive participation of Han chinese in deciding the political fate of their own country.

Remember that the Manchu overrload are a minority, while the majority Han chinese lack political power to influence their own life, surely the aims of the Red Flower society ought to be lauded.

[cupcakes]

Well, the Red Flower members are in fact good people with the right intentions, they genuinely believe that they were doing the right thing.

But the sad thing is: they just have no clue.

Yes, indeed the Red Flower Society are clueless people.
It's sad though, according to the series I watched on it.

[HuangYushi]

If I remember right, the Red Flower Society seemed to have branches all over the country. Some branches, like the one in Hangzhou (that was mentioned in the story), had many members as well.

Yet, there appeared to be a kind of "silent fragmentation" among these components. They had a HQ (where Chen Jialuo and the 14 dangjia belonged) and a goal (to get rid of the Qing Dynasty by making the Han-blood Qianlong the emperor of a new Han-led government), but they did not seem to be a single unified command that compelled all its branches throughout the country to carry out, participate in, or contribute to that goal.

Secondly, while it is good to have a bloodless revolution, it is also very dangerous (and perhaps even foolish) to pin the entire movement's hopes on one powerful man (Qianlong), one inconfident/unwilling leader (Chen Jialuo) and the fragile relationship between them.

Was the Red Flower Society's cause "doomed" (for the lack of a better word) from the start, because it did not have the full support of its branches?
Were these branches hesitant to offer their support because of the inherent weaknesses presented by the relationship between Qianlong and Chen Jialuo, and as Laviathan puts it, because their cause would "not ... better the world"?

Thirdly, ordinary life during the rule of Qianlong was not really as bad as it was under the Yuan Dynasty (when rouge soldiers oppressed commoners who were already suffering in drought and famine) or Emperor Chongzhen of the Ming Dynasty (when massive floods and invading bands of Manchus brought much hardship to the common people). In fact, life under Qianlong was rather prosperous. Therefore, I can only deduce that the Red Flower Society did not have as much support from the masses as other rebel movements had.

For example, Li Zhicheng's rebel army (in Bixuejian or Crimson Sabre) had a lot of support from the common people, so much so that the gates were thrown open at one city after another when the army arrived. This eventually led to the downfall of Emperor Chongzhen.

For the Ming Sect rebels in HSDS, overt fragmentation and disunity did not stop them (regardless of how ragtag they were, like Zhu Yuanzhang and his bunch) from pushing ahead with their goal of overthrowing the Yuan government. When the Ming Sect became united once more, the might of their rebel army increased so greatly that Zhu Yuanzhang eventually became king. (Let's throw historical fact out of the window for this discussion, all right? ) They too had plenty of support from the masses.

Hence, the Red Flower Society ... failed.

[Han Solo]

The Red flower society 'fragmented' branches are typical of the cell design of most freedom fighters and guerilla organizations. It is designed to prevent one mistake from destroying the whole organization.

[Laviathan]

The Red Flower society aimed to change the Qin dynasty to ensure greater or exclusive participation of Han chinese in deciding the political fate of their own country.

Remember that the Manchu overrload are a minority, while the majority Han chinese lack political power to influence their own life, surely the aims of the Red Flower society ought to be lauded.

Yes, and that's exactly why their cause is so blurry.

For as far as I see it, the Qing government during their era was somewhat like this:

Emperor Qianlong (Han Chinese)

Small number of elite families (Manchu)

Big apparatus of government officials (almost exclusively Han Chinese)

What the Red Flower Society wanted was to remove the small number of elite Manchu families. My question: is it really that important?

Please remember that there was something like "Imperial exams" during the Qing dynasty. There was a saying "Man bu dian yuan, Han bu dian fei" (Manchurians never become Imperial Scholars, while Han Chinese never become Imperial Concubines). So, "the majority Han chinese lack political power to influence their own life" is debatable at best. Chen Jialuo's own father was one of the most influential, high-ranking ministers during the reigns of Yongzheng and Qianlong, and he was clearly Han.

I'm not saying that it is wrong to rebel, but I just don't agree with your ideas about why they are rebelling.

[Candide]

They want to overthrow the Manchu government not because of any compassion for the masses or any wish to better the world. The reason they were willing to create chaos and cause the deaths of millions was one of bigotry, they did not want to be ruled by whom they considered "foreigners" or "barbarians."

Bigotry? If you were Chinese and the Japanese took over your country, would you rebel against them? If you were Vietnamese and the Chinese took over your country, would you rebel against them (btw we Viet did)?

The average Chinese might have a better life under Qianlong than under some previous Ming emperors, but the Red Flower Society did not want to restore the Ming dynasty.

They had a good reason to rebel but their methods were stupid and they failed because of two reasons:

1: They placed too much trust in Qianlong.

2: They thought that he was all powerful - they underestimated the powers that the Empress Dowager and the Manchurians held. Remember that Qianlong was pissing his pants when he faced the angry Empress Dowager. If Qianlong truly had had everything under control, he would've gone with Chen Jia Lua's plan. He was really keen to become the "greatest emperor of the Han", like Han Wudi or Tang Taizong.

[Guo Xiang]

I've always thought that the RFS's goals were a little odd, especially when it comes to Qianlong but I didn't see them as villains. LOL

They were just fighting for a purpose they thought was good for their people which didn't seem very right since life was good for the ordinary folks by Qianlong's time. The general Han population didn't seem to care that much anymore too. I mean, as long as the emperor does well, who cares?

[Yang Guo]

The same could be said for the Heaven & Earth Society really... Kang Xi was arguably one of the best emperors anywhere anytime, but they were all over his teenage ***.

But I guess the Heaven & Earth society had more reasoning as the takeover was relatively recent and there was that monster Oboi terrorizing and mass killing everyone good.

[Zhuge Liang]

Qianlongs reign may have been pretty good but it does not diminish the fact that Han people are being ruled by foreign invaders. That the Manchu dynasty used Han officers is due to pragmatism since they are so few compared to the Han. The limits of their advancement in court and in the inner palace pretty indicates that Han are second class citizens. If one wishes to live as a second class citizen that is fine but to expect others to do so as well is wishful thinking. Chinese ppl always rise up against foreign occupiers, the history of China shows that.

Relying on Qianlong to risk everything for no substantive gains was foolish. It made one wonder how on earth the Red Flower Sect managed to survive so long given their collective IQ of zero. However, i think it may be out of pragmatism. This new dynasty could be founded very fast, easily & relatively bloodlessly. Taking over by conventional force methods by comparison would be a dream given the relative stability of the Qing Dynasty. It could have had a high chance of success if Qianlong was committed.

In the end these guys are outsiders to the political arena and have no idea of how the court operated. I shudder to think of how the country would be run with them in charge.

Talk of righteousness etc is pretty much a necessity when you are in a weak position to gather popular support etc. Not everyone had suffered opression and clan cleansing like some of the members of the Red Flower Sect.

I truly believe that Chen Jia Lok's suffering in his heart would not be less than that of Princess Fragrant. Think of how tortured your heart would be if you had to give away the person you loved most. I guess his decision was based on sacrificing personal happiness vs what he believed to be the happiness of all Han ppl. Changing a dynasty is ambitious enough, to do so with little bloodshed even more, and to do so with just sacrificing one innocent life is even more so.

I would not underestimate the capacity for change by removing the Manchu elites. For example, look at Shu-Han with Zhuge Liang as Prime Minister and after the 4 great ministers had died but the same Emperor remained. One man can make all the difference.

[Guo Xiang]

The limits of their advancement in court and in the inner palace pretty indicates that Han are second class citizens

I don't think that's the main reason why they aren't allowed to advance very much. I think the main reason was because the Manchus feared them getting too much power and influence that they might oneday rebel and retake China.