Five Peak Alliance Characteristics & Martial Arts Preferences

[Laviathan]

Lately I've been thinking about a way to describe the nature of a character's fighting style. I mean, "hard" and "soft", "Yin" and "Yang" are too abstract in my opinion, and in the end doesn't help much. Funny enough, I think Jin Yong has already given us a system to categorize fighting styles, in his novel Smiling Proud Wanderer.

In the novel, the Five Peak Alliance styles were:

Taishan: Heavy, hard style emphasizing stability and power. "Overcoming the opponent by force", like a Tiger.

Songshan: Long, grand and powerful style emphasizing bold movements. "Overcoming the enemy with grandeur", like a Dragon.

Huashan: Neutral, well-balanced style emphasizing a complex range of techniques and subtle way of applying power. "Overcoming the opponent with elegance", like a Leopard.

Nanyue (Southern) Hengshan: Swift, deceiving and unpredictable style emphasizing speed and trickery. "Overcoming the enemy with cunning", like a Snake.

Beiyue (Northern) Hengshan: Soft, yielding style emphasizing (agressive) defence. "Using the opponent's power against him, like a needle wrapped inside a cotton cloth", like a Crane.

I believe that, generally speaking, we can use the names of the Five Peak Styles to symbolize the specific fighting styles/martial arts flavour of certain characters.

For example: prior to LOCH, the Greats were somewhat like this...

Ouyang Feng = Taishan (TS)
Hong Qigong = Songshan (SS)
Wang Chongyang = Huashan (HS)
Huang Yaoshi = Nan Heng (NH)
Duan Zhixing = Bei Heng (BH)

During the times of LOCH/ROCH, it changed a little...

Ouyang Feng = Taishan (TS)
Hong Qigong = Songshan (SS)
Yideng = Huashan (HS)
Huang Yaoshi = Nan Heng (NH)
Zhou Botong = Bei Heng (BH)

But more interesting to classify characters whose styles are not so clear-cut.

Xiao Feng:

He fights with great grandeur, and he uses his palm power to overcome opponents by force. He can also perform neutral skills like Taizu Long Fist, but that's secondary.

So I would say he is:
45% SS
45% TS
10% HS

Guo Jing:

Although he too uses Eighteen Dragon Subdueing Palms, Guo Jing fights much more "conventional" than Xiao Feng. Furthermore, he knows Empty Fists and Two Hands Combat.

60% HS
20% BH
15% SS
5% NH

Huang Rong:

80% NH
10% BH
10% HS

Dragon Girl:

She knows Ancient Tomb, which is soft. She also knows Quanzhen, which is neutral. Combined, she uses a very swift and unpredictable style, but unlike Huang Rong she does not emphasize tricks and cunning. So:

33 BH
33 NH
33 HS

Murong Fu:

His Douzhuan Xingyi uses the opponent's power against him. He knows a lot of styles, and switches to confuse the opponent. Of course, he can also fight conventional.

33 BH
33 NH
33 HS

So although the performances of Dragon Girl and Murong Fu are very different from each other, the nature of their personal "flavour" or martial arts preference is very similar.

Dongfang Bubai:

He/she is very fast like Dragon Girl, but the martial arts nature is in fact:

100% NH

OK, comments please. Does this way of categorizing make any sense? Do you agree with the way I classify the above-mentioned characters? Please feel free to put up your own "stats" of characters, if you like.

[letalforever]

yang guo
Relying mainly on his tremendous raw inner power in his swordplay, unpredictability and cunning with his sad palms, and having a wide variety of different martial arts, eg dog-beating stick, hamagong)

50% taishan
30% nanyue hengshan
20% huashan

[Dennis Chen]

I've never read the books except excerpts of passages here and there. Such as the fight between Jing Lun Guo Shi (Well, Jing Lun Fa Wang since it was 2nd Edition) and Yi Deng Da Shi. In the fight, I believe it said that YD's Yiyang Zhi had reached it's peak and the sound it made had become soft (Rou Sen) whereas before it was loud and forceful. That doesn't sound to me as if Duan Zhixing's Yiyang Zhi was 'Bei Heng.' Just my 2 cents.

[HuangYushi]

That's a very interesting premise that you have got, Laviathan. As I read through the post, Zhang Sanfeng came to mind. Now, his martial arts styles/skills (as described in JY's novels) are not common conversation on this forum, but since he has come up, I wonder how he can be mapped on to the characteristics of the Five Peak Alliance.

Based on the two major descriptions of ZSF's martial arts abilities in HSDS, I would like to suggest that he moved from a particular combination of characteristics to a different one within a period of 20 years.

At age 90, he seemed to be:
40-50% Songshan
30-40% Huashan
10-20% or so, combination of Nan Heng and Bei Heng

At age 110, he seemed to be:
30% Songshan
60% Huashan
10% Bei Heng

Do you think that it is possible for a person's dominant style to shift over a period of time, as he/she continues to learn, train and develop new techniques?

Also, would a person's character, inborn disposition and emotional experience (in any combination) affect the mapping of his/her martial arts skills?

Because the study of martial arts is generally not limited only to the physical condition of the person, but also to his/her mental and emotional disposition, like the discussion that has been going on in another thread about Xu Zhu.

[SteveF]

Tiger, Dragon, Snake, Swan, and Leopard are, of course, the components of the Shaolin Five Animal.

[Laviathan]

yang guo
Relying mainly on his tremendous raw inner power in his swordplay, unpredictability and cunning with his sad palms, and having a wide variety of different martial arts, eg dog-beating stick, hamagong)

50% taishan
30% nanyue hengshan
20% huashan

Hmm I would say that, Yang Guo at first learned Ancient Tomb, which is soft (BH), and later added Quanzhen (HS). He then moved to a level in which he used a lot of styles blend into one, and relied on cunning (Dog-Hitting Staff, Huang Yaoshi's arts = NH). After he lost his arm, he relied on the raw power of the Heavy Ironsword (TS). But 16 years later, his fighting style is more like Songshan.

BUT, once he goes into Sad Palms mode, he does not fit into any category... For Sad Palms contradicts and transcends all styles. So, IMO, Yang Guo is either 20% of each, or nothing at all.

I've never read the books except excerpts of passages here and there. Such as the fight between Jing Lun Guo Shi (Well, Jing Lun Fa Wang since it was 2nd Edition) and Yi Deng Da Shi. In the fight, I believe it said that YD's Yiyang Zhi had reached it's peak and the sound it made had become soft (Rou Sen) whereas before it was loud and forceful. That doesn't sound to me as if Duan Zhixing's Yiyang Zhi was 'Bei Heng.' Just my 2 cents.

I agree with ya, my previous stats were a bit far-fetched. I just wanted to place them each in a different class...

As I read through the post, Zhang Sanfeng came to mind. I wonder how he can be mapped on to the characteristics of the Five Peak Alliance.

Hmm my views on him differ a lot from yours it seems. At the age of 90, he was totally Huashan. But when he created the style based on the Heaven Sword Dragon Saber poem calligraphy, he was briefly totally Songshan. But 20 years later, after having invented Taiji, he is totally BH.

Do you think that it is possible for a person's dominant style to shift over a period of time, as he/she continues to learn, train and develop new techniques?

Definitely, Yang Guo is a good example. And even better, Dugu Qiubai!

Also, would a person's character, inborn disposition and emotional experience (in any combination) affect the mapping of his/her martial arts skills?

Definitely! That's the whole idea behind martial arts in Jin Yong's world, and it applies to real life situation too, IMO.

Because the study of martial arts is generally not limited only to the physical condition of the person, but also to his/her mental and emotional disposition, like the discussion that has been going on in another thread about Xu Zhu.

Yep! You might want to look at the Dugu martial arts philosophy thing I wrote here... Just scroll down the page:
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...?t=8957&page=1

[GiftOfForesight]

I can't remember, is Nan Heng the nuns?

[HuangYushi]

Yep! You might want to look at the Dugu martial arts philosophy thing I wrote here...

Fantastic piece of work. Clearly explained and annotated. I wish it was in a thread of its own, though, instead of being lumped with the Duan and Murong bloodlines. Helps people to locate it more quickly.

Hmm my views on him differ a lot from yours it seems. At the age of 90, he was totally Huashan. But when he created the style based on the Heaven Sword Dragon Saber poem calligraphy, he was briefly totally Songshan. But 20 years later, after having invented Taiji, he is totally BH.

I was not keen to use the word "totally" to describe Zhang Sanfeng's style, mainly because people are not absolutes, so their styles should also not be frozen and cast in rock in the way a fossil is created. Thus, due to his creation of the Yitian Tulong Gong at age 90, I gave Zhang Sanfeng a significant score in Songshan characteristics and a comparable one in Huashan. The Yitian Tulong Gong itself is totally Songshan in its execution, but this does not necessarily mean that Zhang Sanfeng himself is totally Songshan, regardless of how brief the time period is, because the Yitian Tulong Gong is not the only martial arts technique that he knows at that point in time.

After Zhang Sanfeng completed his development of Taiji, I gave him a higher score in Huashan characteristics because I felt Taiji is a balanced yet subtle technique. A significant score in Songshan is retained, mainly because of his internal strength that allows him to continue using power and boldness during the execution of (any) techniques. I concede, thought, the "complexity" that marks Huashan is not really very obvious in Taiji.

At the same time, I think Taiji is as aggressive as it is defensive, except that its aggression is indirect and relatively unseen, compared to something like the 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms. That is why I eventually scored Zhang Sanfeng lower on Bei Heng characteristics.

Apologies if I sound a bit incoherent, but the long days and nights that I have kept this week are finally taking its toll.

I can't remember, is Nan Heng the nuns?

Nan Heng is Southern Hengshan in Hunan, the home of Mr Mo and Liu Chengfeng. The nuns live on Bei Heng, or Northern Hengshan in Shanxi.

[Laviathan]

Fantastic piece of work. Clearly explained and annotated.

Thank you, nowadays I am not able to write such things anymore, no more inspiration... *sigh*

Have to address your post in a reversed order...

At the same time, I think Taiji is as aggressive as it is defensive, except that its aggression is indirect and relatively unseen, compared to something like the 18 Dragon Subdueing Palms. That is why I eventually scored Zhang Sanfeng lower on Bei Heng characteristics.

Well, Taiji as a "style" is of course well-balanced and incorporates many different fightinge elements. Very few styles, if any, are absolute in one specific area. Yet, we have to draw the line somewhere... If we talk about styles, then the " style" of Northern Hengshan does not fit completely in the " category" of Beiyue Hengshan. The name Bei Heng is merely the name I chose to symbolize a certain martial arts preference, while the style Northern Hengshan also has certain aggressive elements etc. which does not fit the category. Taiji is well-balanced, but its fighting theory is still soft, yielding, using the opponent's power against him.

I was not keen to use the word "totally" to describe Zhang Sanfeng's style, mainly because people are not absolutes, so their styles should also not be frozen and cast in rock in the way a fossil is created. Thus, due to his creation of the Yitian Tulong Gong at age 90, I gave Zhang Sanfeng a significant score in Songshan characteristics and a comparable one in Huashan. The Yitian Tulong Gong itself is totally Songshan in its execution, but this does not necessarily mean that Zhang Sanfeng himself is totally Songshan, regardless of how brief the time period is, because the Yitian Tulong Gong is not the only martial arts technique that he knows at that point in time.

After Zhang Sanfeng completed his development of Taiji, I gave him a higher score in Huashan characteristics because I felt Taiji is a balanced yet subtle technique. A significant score in Songshan is retained, mainly because of his internal strength that allows him to continue using power and boldness during the execution of (any) techniques. I concede, thought, the "complexity" that marks Huashan is not really very obvious in Taiji.

I agree with you, but just because Zhang Sanfeng is able to do "Huashan" or "Songshan" does not mean his true martial arts preference is such. At the point of the story in which Zhang has invented Taiji, his martial arts principles are "not using force", "flow without interruption", "let the opponent use maximum force, redirect it to let him cripple himself"... This is all very BH.

I would say that Zhang Sanfeng is:

70 BH
20 HS
10 SS

[HuangYushi]

Thank you, nowadays I am not able to write such things anymore, no more inspiration... *sigh*

You should keep at least one compiled set of these things ... for the day when the study of JY novels becomes a serious and widely-accepted pursuit at varsity level (something that the average mom won't frown on), on par with engineering, medicine and business. Then, you can publish them as a reference text or something.

I would say that Zhang Sanfeng is:
70 BH
20 HS
10 SS

Point made! Although our individual views are different, at least we eventually agree that Zhang Sanfeng is not totally one thing or other.

Hey, does anyone want to try mapping one or more of the following pugilists?

• Dugu Qiubai
• Sweeper Monk
• Xuanming Elders
• Jiumozhi
• Shi Potian
• Tian Boguang
• Wei Xiaobao (if he can be considered a pugilist!)

Some will be more obvious and some will be more challenging, but Lav and I can't be the only two fellows with lengthy ideas in this thread, can we?