Do male and female wuxia fans tend to judge Cheung Mo Gei differently?

[Ken Cheng]

This post originally appeared as a reply in another thread, but I thought it would make a good discussion thread in its own right.

I've found that opinions about Cheung Mo Gei (at least at this forum) tend to break along gender lines: women tend to condemn him for his alleged "indecisiveness" in his personal affairs whereas men tend to admire him for his accomplishments in wulin as Ming Cult Leader and the enlightened, compassionate manner in which he conducted himself as a wulin man (to a degree unparalleled by any other Jin Yong protagonist).

As a corollary, men tend to not let Cheung Mo Gei's difficulties in his personal affairs color their view of his wulin accomplishments, whereas women tend to focus so much on his personal affairs that it also colors their views of his wulin activities.

[sandy1]

Hmm, interesting question. I can't speak for all females, so I'm not going to vote.

As for myself, I generally admire ZWJ's conduct in wulin/ public affairs, but find his indecisiveness in his personal life exasperating, at times literally farcical. I don't like how he becomes more and more indecisive with each revision, but I totally understand why JY did this: he was trying to make ZWJ more complex, and therefore more realistic. In real life, we all know men who are universally admired as leaders, but whose private lives are far from ideal. From all of the protagonists in the trilogy, I've always found ZWJ to be the blandest. By stressing his indecisiveness in personal matters, JY had added a distinctive characteristic to his personality.

[Ken Cheng]

Hmm, interesting question. I can't speak for all females, so I'm not going to vote.

You'd only be speaking for yourself...how you see the situation.

As for myself, I generally admire ZWJ's conduct in wulin/ public affairs, but find his indecisiveness in his personal life exasperating, at times literally farcical. I don't like how he becomes more and more indecisive with each revision, but I totally understand why JY did this: he was trying to make ZWJ more complex, and therefore more realistic. In real life, we all know men who are universally admired as leaders, but whose private lives are far from ideal. From all of the protagonists in the trilogy, I've always found ZWJ to be the blandest. By stressing his indecisiveness in personal matters, JY had added a distinctive characteristic to his personality.

In some interview over the years, Jin Yong remarked that of all his protagonists, he resembled Cheung Mo Gei the most. Perhaps Jin Yong was trying to say something about himself through the character.

I've long held the opinion that Cheung Mo Gei might have been an allegory for Dr. Sun Yat Sen, another Chinese revolutionary known for his valor as a leader of men, but was not quite so noble in his affairs with women.

[sandy1]

You'd only be speaking for yourself...how you see the situation.



In some interview over the years, Jin Yong remarked that of all his protagonists, he resembled Cheung Mo Gei the most. Perhaps Jin Yong was trying to say something about himself through the character.

I've long held the opinion that Cheung Mo Gei might have been an allegory for Dr. Sun Yat Sen, another Chinese revolutionary known for his valor as a leader of men, but was not quite so noble in his affairs with women.

Yes, that's what I meant by real life men who are great leaders but not so great in their personal affairs. They're all only human after all, and should be judged in their totality, not just from one aspect of their lives. That's why I said in another thread that I prefer LHC over ZWJ in how he conducts his personal affairs, but I'd certainly choose ZWJ over LHC as a leader. LHC meant well, but he is just not a leader material. There is no way that he'd lead a successful revolt against foreign occupiers.

As for JY identifiying himself with ZWJ, he himself admitted that his private life was not ideal (he went through 3 marriages).

[Tam_Nguyen]

Interesting. I was thinking about that too since my brother told me that his favourite Jin Yong heros is ZWJ. I didn't think the same but I didn't ask him why did he choose ZWJ...

As a girl, I do think that he is too indecisive. Also, when I was reading the novel, I always feel that ZWJ is like a little kid? Although he has high martial art skills, it doesn't seem that his ladies were safe beside him. I just feel that he can't protect his girl. Only Lawrence Ng's portrayal make me think that he can protect ZM.

[Son of Light]

His girls are also trained in Martial Arts, they should be capable of protecting themselves.
Especially ZZR and ZM this 2.

[jadebunny9]

It's not just his indecisiveness. It's his tendency to choke at times.

[clfan]

I am female, and I do not like men with characteristic like ZWZ. I am not attractive to undecisive men. ZWZ seem to be easily influences and easily distracted by his surrounding, not my cup of tea.
I like men like Yang Guo and Xiao Feng. Who can make up their own mind, stand up for their own choices, someone who knows what they want in life and know what they after.

[ByTmE]

I am also female, haha.

To be frank, I have never really thought too much about the character of ZWJ. That is, I never found him to be interesting, unless of course if he happened to be played by a handsome actor. But to date, I have not been impressed by any.

Actually, I have always been more concerned with the dynamics and characterization of the women in his life. He is surrounded by some pretty interesting, not to mention, beautiful women and intelligent women. For me, I watched the different versions because I am a fan of the women, not so much ZWJ. He's okay. Certainly, they make him out to have some bada$$ skills, but his personality and appearance is sort of bland. If he hadn't made it to the top (in many ways, without intention) he wouldn't have caught the eye of so many women, except for his cousin. And then he turned out to be decent.

Even when he was interacting with the women...it was more like he was responding to them as a passive party than active participant. Of course, I am only speaking from my impression of the various actors and versions I have seen on tv. I remember quite clearly the actresses, but never the actors.

I am not sure I expressed myself well, but I thought that the women should have been the main focus on the story and not him haha

[Ken Cheng]

I am also female, haha.

To be frank, I have never really thought too much about the character of ZWJ. That is, I never found him to be interesting, unless of course if he happened to be played by a handsome actor. But to date, I have not been impressed by any.

Actually, I have always been more concerned with the dynamics and characterization of the women in his life. He is surrounded by some pretty interesting, not to mention, beautiful women and intelligent women. For me, I watched the different versions because I am a fan of the women, not so much ZWJ. He's okay. Certainly, they make him out to have some bada$$ skills, but his personality and appearance is sort of bland. If he hadn't made it to the top (in many ways, without intention) he wouldn't have caught the eye of so many women, except for his cousin. And then he turned out to be decent.

Even when he was interacting with the women...it was more like he was responding to them as a passive party than active participant. Of course, I am only speaking from my impression of the various actors and versions I have seen on tv. I remember quite clearly the actresses, but never the actors.

I am not sure I expressed myself well, but I thought that the women should have been the main focus on the story and not him haha

I was never too impressed by the girls of HSDS, frankly. I thought DGSD, LOCH, and ROCH each offered more interesting sets.

But I focus on entirely different things than most other fans do in these stories. For the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY, for example, what interests me most is the ongoing struggle between Chinese wulin and the Mongol Empire that started in LOCH, continued in ROCH, and reached its culmination in HSDS. To me, the trilogy isn't just the story of the individual characters, but the metastory of China's struggle against the Mongols.

[sandy1]

"Actually, I have always been more concerned with the dynamics and characterization of the women in his life. He is surrounded by some pretty interesting, not to mention, beautiful women and intelligent women. For me, I watched the different versions because I am a fan of the women, not so much ZWJ. He's okay. Certainly, they make him out to have some bada$$ skills, but his personality and appearance is sort of bland. If he hadn't made it to the top (in many ways, without intention) he wouldn't have caught the eye of so many women, except for his cousin. And then he turned out to be decent.

Even when he was interacting with the women...it was more like he was responding to them as a passive party than active participant. Of course, I am only speaking from my impression of the various actors and versions I have seen on tv. I remember quite clearly the actresses, but never the actors."

I've read the novel and got the same impression, too. As a protagonist, ZWJ, despite his good qualities and high level of martial art, is just too bland. He doesn't leave a strong impression like YG, GJ, LHC or WXB. The women are certainly more interesting than him. Maybe that's why I've never felt compelled to reread HSDS, while I did reread LOCH and ROCH several times. Ditto for the adaptations.

[kidd]

I've found that opinions about Cheung Mo Gei (at least at this forum) tend to break along gender lines: women tend to condemn him for his alleged "indecisiveness" in his personal affairs whereas men tend to admire him for his accomplishments in wulin as Ming Cult Leader and the enlightened, compassionate manner in which he conducted himself as a wulin man (to a degree unparalleled by any other Jin Yong protagonist).

As a corollary, men tend to not let Cheung Mo Gei's difficulties in his personal affairs color their view of his wulin accomplishments, whereas women tend to focus so much on his personal affairs that it also colors their views of his wulin activities.

I'm the opposite of what you have observed. I like Cheung Mo Gei for his compassionate and 'do things for the greater good' nature and don't mind his indecisiveness in his personal affairs.