internal energy question

[Whsie]

I'll try out this for ROCH:
1st class: Li Mo Cho, the No Feeling village leader, beggar clan 4 big elder, HR, 2 of the 4 mongolian warriors (the ones that lived to the end)
1st of 1st class: YQL, 1 of the 4 mongolian monks (the one that had leg problem) with that something elephant kung fu of his, XLN, Metal Palm leader etc...
Supreme or Jui Ding: GJ, ZBT, YG, HYS, H7G, OYF, Golden Wheel Monk, Yi Deng, Jui Yeng (considering his massive internal, I'll give him the spot, despite no outer kung fu)
Unstoppables: ....., no one, I guess.

LOCH:
1st class: beggar clan 4 elder, 7 masters of Chuan Zhen, OYF's son, etc...
1st of 1st class: GJ, Metal Palm leader, etc....
Supreme: the 4 Greats.
Unstoppables: no one.

For HSDS, if I were to use the same system, the order would seem to be messed up. For unstoppables: I would only add in Z3F. And move ZWJ and YG's decendent to Supreme, but then the the rank would be messed up. ZWJ and YG's decendent far by surpasses all the other supremes. So it would be like a between Supreme and unstoppables.

[superboy]

I'll try out this for ROCH:
1st class: Li Mo Cho, the No Feeling village leader, beggar clan 4 big elder, HR, 2 of the 4 mongolian warriors (the ones that lived to the end)
1st of 1st class: YQL, 1 of the 4 mongolian monks (the one that had leg problem) with that something elephant kung fu of his, XLN, Metal Palm leader etc...
Supreme or Jui Ding: GJ, ZBT, YG, HYS, H7G, OYF, Golden Wheel Monk, Yi Deng, Jui Yeng (considering his massive internal, I'll give him the spot, despite no outer kung fu)
Unstoppables: ....., no one, I guess.

LOCH:
1st class: beggar clan 4 elder, 7 masters of Chuan Zhen, OYF's son, etc...
1st of 1st class: GJ, Metal Palm leader, etc....
Supreme: the 4 Greats.
Unstoppables: no one.

For HSDS, if I were to use the same system, the order would seem to be messed up. For unstoppables: I would only add in Z3F. And move ZWJ and YG's decendent to Supreme, but then the the rank would be messed up. ZWJ and YG's decendent far by surpasses all the other supremes. So it would be like a between Supreme and unstoppables.

QQR should likely to be in the Jui Ding catagory, .

[Black Night Sea]

And since HZD felt the power increasing I'd say that it was in fact superior.

If that’s what you thought all along then that’s not true. It was only describing ZJB’s internal energy to being overflowing; it’s got nothing to do with its growth when he was engaged in battle. My rough translation clearly states this.

What I was saying was basically what you mean by internal energy can be unleashed at will. They didn't unleash it all, thus the power wasn't enough to seriously injured HZD in the first strike.

Why wouldn’t he put forth his effort in the 1st strike? His master was critically at danger during that point. It would be rational for any student to do that if their teacher’s life is in danger right in front of their eyes. ZJB wasn’t that aware of his own abilities anyway. If he didn’t use full power to pull his master out of that drastic situation, then why bother if he’s going to be on the receiving end of a counterattack from HZD? Luckily, HZD didn’t pay attention to this kid very much.

Either way, ZJB's internal energy must be very close to HZD if it's below, or greater than HZD's energy.

From my point of view, I’ve got the feeling that Jin Yong was not entirely resolute as to who’s internal energy was better. At one point he seemed to highlight a difference and then on another it’s a friggin’ tie.

Jin Yong used those terms as 一流高手, 一等一的高手, 絕頂高手 quite randomly. Without any specific criteria.

I thought they were quite accurate to be honest.

[yittz]

I'll try out this for ROCH:
1st class: Li Mo Cho, the No Feeling village leader, beggar clan 4 big elder, HR, 2 of the 4 mongolian warriors (the ones that lived to the end)
1st of 1st class: YQL, 1 of the 4 mongolian monks (the one that had leg problem) with that something elephant kung fu of his, XLN, Metal Palm leader etc...
Supreme or Jui Ding: GJ, ZBT, YG, HYS, H7G, OYF, Golden Wheel Monk, Yi Deng, Jui Yeng (considering his massive internal, I'll give him the spot, despite no outer kung fu)
Unstoppables: ....., no one, I guess.

LOCH:
1st class: beggar clan 4 elder, 7 masters of Chuan Zhen, OYF's son, etc...
1st of 1st class: GJ, Metal Palm leader, etc....
Supreme: the 4 Greats.
Unstoppables: no one.

For HSDS, if I were to use the same system, the order would seem to be messed up. For unstoppables: I would only add in Z3F. And move ZWJ and YG's decendent to Supreme, but then the the rank would be messed up. ZWJ and YG's decendent far by surpasses all the other supremes. So it would be like a between Supreme and unstoppables.

The three mongols should be in the same class. 4 big elders in beggar clan are who? They wouldn't be anywhere near HR or QZ7. YLQ must be below HR and LMC. Iron palm in supreme.

Z3F and ZWJ should be in same level. Unclear where Yang descendent sits, but unlikely to be better than/close to YG, hence ZWJ.

[Whsie]

Ok, scratch 4 elders of beggar clan. YQZ isn't moving. YQZ WEAKER THEN HR and LMC???? You kidding me? The YQZ I'm talking about is the one at the end of ROCH. The YQZ that knows 80% or 90% of the Chuan Zhen and Vacant Fist.
Iron Palm, I still wouldn't move him up. Though it wasn't stated directly, but Iron Palm Leader is actually weaker than the 4 greats. In LOCH, when GJ was fighting OYF when OYF came out of nowhere to attack GJ looking for HR ( somewhere in the 4th book), OYF thought in his mind that his internal was still 1 level higher ( yes..., that's what book said). Earlier, before GJ met Yi Deng, when GJ first fought the real Iron Palm Leader..., the Iron Palm leader thought in his mind that in terms of internal he was a half notch above GJ. In other words, OYF > Iron Palm leader.
And furthermore, YG at age 18 beated Iron Palm leader with Xuan Tie Jian. At that time, YG is not yet supreme, he was like 1st of 1st class at the time.
YG's decendent we can't tell because not enough of evidence, but at the worst, YG's decendent is = to 1 of the 3 super strong monks. ZWJ..., I wouldn't give him the level at Z3F yet, maybe when ZWJ is in his 30s...., but not at 20 years old. As good as 9 Yang (I believe it's the best internal), I doubt at such a young age, ZWJ can surpass Z3F at 100 something.

[PJ]

Iron Palm, I still wouldn't move him up. Though it wasn't stated directly, but Iron Palm Leader is actually weaker than the 4 greats

He was basically the same as the Greats up till the end of LOCH. Guo Jing himself thought that. Also Jin Yong the author was very skeptical about Yi Deng being able to defeat Qiu Qianren. He wrote that Yi Deng *might* be able to defeat Qiu, if combing his 2 best skills, but the result is not certain. And this was in ROCH.

Golden Wheel Monk injured Qiu Qianren, but it took him ONE DAY AND ONE NIGHT to do this. Now, this is the Golden Wheel Monk AFTER reaching the highest (or next to highest) level of the Dragon Elephant Sutra, having immensely increased his power. If Qiu Qianren was weaker than the Greats, he would never have lasted one day. Even a Great would probably not more than 1 day against Golden Wheel Monk due to the Greats' aging.

About Yelu Qi, isn't he basically the same level as Huo Du at the end of ROCH? Huo Du is no match for Huang Rong.

[bobbywu]

But QQR had to run for his life against ZBT. If QQR = Great, doesn't that mean ZBT> Great?

[Whsie]

But, YG at the time was not yet a supreme level, he was a 1st of 1st class. YG with Demonic Xuan Tie. YG beated Iron Palm leader. Doesn't that mean Iron Palm < Great because YG < Great (at that time).
I agree partially with PJ. Iron Palm was probably= to Great before LOCH. But by LOCH, he was lagging behind. I personally think Iron Palm is overrated. GJ (scene is when GJ and HR got captured by beggar clan with YK leading) was able to match the same power as Iron Palm leader when they exchanged palms on the beggar clan people. Now, this GJ is not even at the level when he fought HYS when GJ thought HYS killed his masters and at that time, GJ was losing to HYS.

[superboy]

But QQR had to run for his life against ZBT. If QQR = Great, doesn't that mean ZBT> Great?

ZBT is indeed somewhat better then the Greats.

But, YG at the time was not yet a supreme level, he was a 1st of 1st class. YG with Demonic Xuan Tie. YG beated Iron Palm leader. Doesn't that mean Iron Palm < Great because YG < Great (at that time).
I agree partially with PJ. Iron Palm was probably= to Great before LOCH. But by LOCH, he was lagging behind. I personally think Iron Palm is overrated. GJ (scene is when GJ and HR got captured by beggar clan with YK leading) was able to match the same power as Iron Palm leader when they exchanged palms on the beggar clan people. Now, this GJ is not even at the level when he fought HYS when GJ thought HYS killed his masters and at that time, GJ was losing to HYS.

I think QQR lost to YG in ROCH partly was because of YG wacking snow into QQR's eyes with his sword or something like that. GJ did comment that QQR is as strong as the other H7G and OYF. If QQR uses full strength, GJ would not be able to take his palms full force at that time. QQR could've beaten GJ easily that time. And the Iron Palm was also considered an equal to XL18Z. It's not as fierce as XL18Z, but has a better refinement of techniques.

[ChronoReverse]

And the Iron Palm was also considered an equal to XL18Z. It's not as fierce as XL18Z, but has a better refinement of techniques.

Actually, it's considered to be slightly inferior in terms of techniques. QQR did achieve a very high level in the skill though.

[superboy]

Actually, it's considered to be slightly inferior in terms of techniques. QQR did achieve a very high level in the skill though.

No, I believe that the techniques are more refined.

[Ken Cheng]

About Yelu Qi, isn't he basically the same level as Huo Du at the end of ROCH? Huo Du is no match for Huang Rong.

I think Yeh Lut Chai defeats Fok Do fairly easily in a fair fight. Fok Do was only able to "win" that fight by cheating (doused the lanterns so that Yeh Lut Chai couldn't see him, then sucker punched him).

[PJ]

I think Yeh Lut Chai defeats Fok Do fairly easily in a fair fight. Fok Do was only able to "win" that fight by cheating (doused the lanterns so that Yeh Lut Chai couldn't see him, then sucker punched him).

Unless I am mistaking, Yelu Qi and Huo Du were competing fairly for about 80 stances. During that time Huo Du didn't want to expose his identity, so he was using secondary techniques, and he was still a match to Yelu Qi for at least 80 stances. After that, if he used his full skill set, I think the result is inconclusive. I don't see Yelu Qi defeating Huo Du easily at all.

[i_fotted]

YLQ < HR.... At best he is equal to her, but no way can he be above her.

QQR < any Greats

[kyss of the sword]

i belive that yeluqi was on par with haudo, haudo with his twenty more years of inner power was on the defensive the whole time, he was overwhelmed by yeluqi techniques. even through he was not using his true martial arts, if he went all out, he might not have been able to secure a victory. yeluqi by this time was on par with the QZ elders(ma & QQJ level).

as for QQR, when YG fought him, the difference between that battle and the one with JLFW was YG could move around and fight but he still had as much trouble in the fight as he did with JLFW. QQR inner strenght was on par with the greats and his iron palms were only slightly inferior to yideng's yiyang finger. it was said in the novel that yideng might win by one stroke only after hundereds of moves. his iron palms were more refined in their variations and changes then the dragon palms but was inferior in the power released in each strike. he lost to YG because of old age; same as ZBT 16yrs later, he couldn't keep up the hard pace and tripped letting YG get in the finishing move.

[superboy]

he lost to YG because of old age; same as ZBT 16yrs later, he couldn't keep up the hard pace and tripped letting YG get in the finishing move.

ZBT didn't trip, the battle was virtually a draw.

[yittz]

Think Kyss is refering to QQR.

Are there any evidence to suggest YLQ is on par with QCJ/MaYu? Especially when YLQ is having trouble beating HuoDo, who in turn is clearly below QCJ.

Its hard to imagine not, when he has lived over 10 years with GJ and HR, have ZBT as a teacher. I blame GuoFu...he wasted the 16 years fighting for Song and trying to please GuoFu.

[PJ]

Also, it seems that even Huo Du's palm range was about 10 feet. If this is the case, the Greats' palm wind should extend to MUCH broader distance.

[PJ]

I thought they were quite accurate to be honest.

Not sure. In chapter 48, Murong Fu was described as 一流高手. In chapter 15, Qiao Feng rated one of Murong Fu's servants as 一流. Now, you'll agree those 2 are far apart in martial arts. Add to that, Abbot Xuanci and his Shaolin peers, along with Ding Chunqiu, have all been described as 一流. Surely they are much much better than Murong Fu's servant.

[Black Night Sea]

Also, it seems that even Huo Du's palm range was about 10 feet. If this is the case, the Greats' palm wind should extend to MUCH broader distance.

Yeah, I’ve had a look through posts from a former member called Kenny and his proposed theory of LDS (Long-distance Shoves). I found it somewhat shallow in many ways, probably in the same way as you coz we both looked at this: -

…這一掌力似乎并不甚強，但掌力分布所及，几有一丈方圓。梁長老尚未退開，竟被他掌力在臉頰上一帶，熱辣辣 的頗為疼痛，忙躍在台側。

…(He Shiwo/Huo Du)’s force from his single palm doesn’t seem very strong. But the extent, to which the force’s scattered, was around 10 feet circumference. Before Elder Liang had the chance to evade, the force had already made contact to his face, and caused a tingling and painfully hot sensation. So quickly jumped to the sides of the platform…