zhu ge liang vs huang rong (with a side order of steppemen vs. agrarians debate)

[yittz]

They were thinking dark ages all over again - a repeat of what Attila the Hun did to Europe. The Mongol empire of then was arguably the greatest empire in history taking in land at the speed of their horses. They probably would have taken over Europe if YG didn't kill the great Khan. (or was that a later Khan?) Nothing short of a total replacement of the government (or 2 miracles as for the Japanese) would have saved Song.

Wasn't Song one of the last empires to fall to the Mongols?

[kidd]

zhu ge liang winz0r

What does winz0r mean?

[strife_au]

What does winz0r mean?

hehe well it's just a word that I use when playing games online... just a cool way of saying someone would win lol.. it seems heaps of ppl like to use a z0r at the end for no reason

[Extremer88]

hehe well it's just a word that I use when playing games online... just a cool way of saying someone would win lol.. it seems heaps of ppl like to use a z0r at the end for no reason

LOL. I only heard of Winrar and Winzip.

[Bai Qi44]

They were thinking dark ages all over again - a repeat of what Attila the Hun did to Europe. The Mongol empire of then was arguably the greatest empire in history taking in land at the speed of their horses. They probably would have taken over Europe if YG didn't kill the great Khan. (or was that a later Khan?) Nothing short of a total replacement of the government (or 2 miracles as for the Japanese) would have saved Song.

Wasn't Song one of the last empires to fall to the Mongols?

YG is fictional and it was due to other factors that the Mongols didn't progress any further beyond the middle East. I believe they actually lost a battle against one of those middle eastern kingdoms and that was mainly what stopped them from going on further. That and the fact that the Mongol troops didn't want to progress any further. Just like Alexander the great and his troops, the Mongol troops were getting tired and didn't want to fight anymore. But you're right, the European countries at the time were scared at the Mongol Empire's progress. I know it was actually a middle eastern kingdom that stopped the Mongol empire's progress, but I can't remember which one.

Oh, if you're going by history. Pretty much all of Asia (including a lot of China) and lots of the middle east were already conquered by the Mongols by the time YG killed the Khan. It was Klhubai Khan (he was the one who had all those powerful lackeys in the golden wheel monk, Wun Hak Sai, Xi Xiong Zi, Ma Gor something, and Ni Mo Xing) who finally conquered all of China. The Mongols conquested the most land under Klhubai Khan.

[Ken Cheng]

YG is fictional and it was due to other factors that the Mongols didn't progress any further beyond the middle East.

I don't know for certain if it's history or legend, but I've read that the Mongol army was within sight of Constantinople (the last major outpost of Western Asia before it became Eastern Europe) when the Mongols suddenly withdrew their troops because they had just received word about the death of Genghis Khan (which, considering the slow pace of communications at the time, might have happened a year or more earlier).

[yittz]

The saracens? They wiped out Persia, but Ottomans survived.

I think they also lost a battle to Europe as well in Austria near Vienna.

I was making a joke about YG

Didn't quite a lot of potential Khans come back to contest the throne instead of continuing the conquest? That was Khublai Khan's death?

[Ken Cheng]

Didn't quite a lot of potential Khans come back to contest the throne instead of continuing the conquest? That was Khublai Khan's death?

Kublai Khan ruled the Yuan Dynasty for thirty years before dying. After his death, the dynasty went into steep decline. Mongol power elsewhere (especially Russia), however, would remain strong for many years to come even after the Mongols were overthrown in China and the Ming Dynasty restored Han Chinese rule in the central plains of China.

[yittz]

It's interesting that China was one of the last empires to be conquered and one of the first to upsurp the rule.

Here's an exerpt from wikipedia:

"The empire's expansion continued for a generation or more after Genghis's death in 1227 — indeed, under Genghis's successor Ögedei Khan the speed of expansion reached its peak. Mongol armies pushed into Persia, finished off the Xia and the remnants of the Khwarezmids, and came into conflict with the Song Dynasty of China, starting a war that would last until 1279 concluding with the Mongols' successful conquest of populous China, which consituted then the majority of the world's economic production.

Then, in the late 1230s, the Mongols under Batu Khan invaded Russia and Volga Bulgaria, reducing most of its principalities to vassalage, and pressed on into Eastern Europe. In 1241 the Mongols may have been ready to invade western Europe as well, having defeated the last Polish-German and Hungarian armies at the Battle of Legnica and the Battle of Mohi. Batu Khan and Subutai were preparing to invade western Europe, starting with a winter campaign against Austria and Germany, and finishing with Italy. The following year probaby would see France, the Low Countries and Iberia fall, as Batu swore to conquer all the way to the "Great Sea, (the Atlantic Ocean), but at this point news of Ögedei's death led to first the partial suspension of the invasion and then to its effective conclusion as Batu's attention switched to the election of the next Great Khan. Only the death of Ogedei spared western Europe, which probably would have fared no better against the Mongol armies than had their eastern comrades at Mohi. Indeed, even the Teutonic Order, a crack standing army contrary to most feudal western hosts, was slaughtered to a man at the Battle of Legnica.

During the 1250s, Genghis's grandson Hulegu Khan, operating from the Mongol base in Persia, destroyed the Abbasid Caliphate in Baghdad and destroyed the cult of the Assassins, moving into Palestine towards Egypt. The Great Khan Möngke having died, however, he hastened to return for the election, and the force that remained in Palestine was destroyed by the Mamluks under Baibars in 1261 at Ayn Jalut."

Is wikipedia stuff copyright?

To Baiqi: It appears it was the Mamluks who defeated Mongols (but I am not sure if it was the same battle as it seems rather hollow). Europe was planned to be conquered in 2 years and only Ogedai's death prevented that. So nothing to do with fictional YG, as YG killed Mongke correct?

[Ken Cheng]

It's interesting that China was one of the last empires to be conquered and one of the first to upsurp the rule.

Southern China's varied terrain and wide area gave the Mongols all kinds of problems. The Mongols were the undisputed masters of cavalry warfare on the open steppes, but when they got into southern China with its hills, mountains, swamps, forests, and fortified cities (such as Seung Yeung), they got really bogged down. Taking southern China was a slow, arduous slog for the Mongols, who had swept through the Eurasian steppes of the north and west with impunity during Genghis and Ogodei's reigns. To overcome the Sung Dynasty's advantage in urban siege warfare, the Mongols had to enlist the help of traitorous Han Chinese and Arabs.

[yittz]

Yes true. Apparently Mongols planned their campaigns to occur in winter as the frozen water allowed their horses to pass like over the tricky water ways (and also the moats? surrounding the castles). Most of what they conquered in the north, are quite flat and sparsely populated.

Yes it's sad, the Mongols achieved more than the Huns and the Vikings (whom also employed mobile strike forces, but weak at siege attacks) partly due to the knowledge of Han Chinese provided with regards to building siege weapons such as Trebuchets.

[strife_au]

hmmm just wondering does anyone know good sites that give a lot of indepth info about the history of china ?

[Bai Qi44]

hmmm just wondering does anyone know good sites that give a lot of indepth info about the history of china ?

http://chinahistoryforum.com It's got discussion forums ranging from pre-Qin Dynasty all the way to the current communist party in China.

[SolidSnake]

I believe the Mongols was stopped because of 2 things:
1. They were spreading too thin (because too fast).
2. Internal conflicts.

Mongols' invasion was actually the effort of three generations. They lost many battles but won most of the wars. Anyway, it was kind of a good decision to stop spreading. They were recruiting soldiers from the defeated countries, which at this point of time has proven to not be a good thing to do.

[Ken Cheng]

I believe the Mongols was stopped because of 2 things:
1. They were spreading too thin (because too fast).
2. Internal conflicts.

A third consideration was the gradual decadence of the famous Mongol discipline that Genghis Khan had instilled into his followers and had continued to be practiced at least as far as Kublai's rule. As the Mongols conquered the settled civilizations, they began to take on some of their subjects' vices and lost the martial spirit that had made them so formidable in the first place.

A fourth factor was that the Mongols were great warriors, but not great administrators for populations as large as the ones they conquered. Their tribal system of government was good enough for Mongolia, but wasn't very effective for ruling millions of Chinese, etc.

[yittz]

Other Khans weren't happy with Kublai (the Great Khan)'s conversion to chinese lifestyle/ruling and moving the capital to Beijing.

[PrinceKrillo]

Seeing as how Huang Rong is a fictional character, this comparison would obviously be between her and the FICTIONAL Zhuge Liang.

That said ... there is no contest.

Huang Rong is easily the most clever person of the entire Condor Trilogy ... possibly out of the entire genre of wuxia.

But Zhuge Liang isn't merely clever. He has insight, cunning, and wisdom that far surpass Huang Rong's mind.

That said ... Zhuge Liang still doesn't hold a candle to Cao Cao.

So the answer is ... Lord Cao FTW. Cao Cao owns everyone else. Ever.

[Bai Qi44]

I'll agree with you about the historical Cao Cao. No one touches him in the Three Kingdoms era when it comes to intelligence. But, if you're using the fictional Huang Rong and the fictional Zhuge Liang, then you might as well use the fictional Cao Cao from LGZ's book. LGZ was so biased towards Shu and made Cao Cao out to be such a villain, it's not even funny.

If we use the novel's Cao Cao, then the novel's Zhuge Liang is ahead of Cao Cao easily as LGZ purposely made Zhuge Liang out to be the smartest character in the book. LGZ gave ZL credit where credit was not his (like the fog predicting event in real history) and blame others for ZL's failures.

Wow, thanks for the bump of this thread. It's been a while for me and my Three Kingdoms memory isn't as good as it used to be.

[Trien Chieu]

Other Khans weren't happy with Kublai (the Great Khan)'s conversion to chinese lifestyle/ruling and moving the capital to Beijing.

Why did they not happy with that. I thought ancient Chinese lifestyle was full of luxuries. It's so much better than the Mongolian lifestyle during that era.

[Ken Cheng]

Why did they not happy with that. I thought ancient Chinese lifestyle was full of luxuries. It's so much better than the Mongolian lifestyle during that era.

The Mongolian leaders were afraid that they would suffer the same fate as the Khitans and Jurchens before them: they would adopt Chinese habits and Chinese vices, and become decadent and lose the discipline and martial character that had enabled them to achieve victory in the first place.

In the end, those fears materialized: the Yuan rulers who lost China to the resurgent Hans led by Chu Yeun Cheung and other rebels were *nothing* in character like Temujin and his sons.