X-Men: The Last Stand

[atlantean0208]

Why onslought cant kill cable is because cables mind is way stronger than onslought.

Cable aka Nathan Christopher Charles Summers is the son of Phoenix by proxy. Jean Grey clone, Madeline Pryor aka Goblyn Queen (created by Mister Sinister) posessed by Phoenix once Jean Grey died of suicide at the Blue Area of the Moon. Madeline later married to Cyclops and Cable is born. Like his "mother" Cable also has great telepathic and telekinetic powers (psionic).

[jennifertan]

You can't take the gem out of Juggernaut. it is stuck in him.

.

Nop your wrong, Onslaught physically struck the Juggernaut from Canada all the way to New Jersey at the beginning of the Onslaught crossover with a blow that strangely knocked the Juggernaut unconscious. The lapse in portrayal would continue as Onslaught would later imprison the Juggernaut in the Cyttorak dimension by reaching into Cain Marko's chest and pulling out the ruby of Cyttorak, leaving Cain Marko powerless.

Uncanny X-Men #322

[Spanner]

Nice to see people who know their comics here.

Someone mentioned that the Beyonder was a multiverse or its own universe or something (too lazy to go back and read it), but he didn't mention about how powerful the Beyonder is. Seeing that Glactus was child's play to Beyonder, I'm thinking he's even more powerful than the Phoenix. Is this a correct assumption? Who would be the most powerful Marvel characters and please include dieties / entities / supreme beings / etc...?

The original Beyonder in secret wars I, was certainly protrayed as being all powerful, above Eternity, Death and Galactus. I don't think the Living tribunial was created yet (have to check).

This was later retconed, in fact he was just one part of a cosmic cube, cosmic cubes are very very powerful, but are below the Celestials who are in one theory servants of Eternity.

In current marvel contunity, the Living Tribunal (LT) is typically considered Top dog. He is in charge of all the multiuniverses, while Eternity is in charge of one universe (616 universe is the name given the main stream Marvel). The LT claims to report to one even higher, often dubbed by fans as "The One above all" (not to be confused with the Celestial with the same name) but we don't know anything about this 'One above all' but most fans assume he is God.

It is said that the LT is truly multi-universal, because there is only one of him in all the multiuniverses, while even cosmic abstracts like Eternity have seperate copies in other universes.

Phoenix Force fans, argue that Pheonix is actually at least equal to LT, and most probably even superior, but that's another argument.

The holder of the infinity gauntlet, has proven to be superior to Eternity, but it's unclear if it gives him even power to defy the living tribunial. There's a scene where the LT orders Adam Warlock to give up the infinity gauntlet, and he does. But depending on how you interprete the conversation he does it because he knows he will lose if he fights or he might win but he doesn't want the universe destroyed in the struggle.

Certainly, after that event, the LT ruled that the infinity gems can never be used together to form the IG, so obviously indidivually, they don't have the power to defy the LT.

In "Marvel the end", Thanos, finds and uses "the Heart of the Universe", comparing it to the infinity gauntlet (which he has held and used), Thanos finds the infinity gauntelet inferior!

He proves it by destroying and absorbing every cosmic entity, even the Living tribunal into him!

I am of the view that the holder of the Heart of the Universe is truly omnipotent
though that is arguable of course.

The cosmic hierarchy goes something like this my opinion

The one above all
Holder of Heart of universe (might be 1 spots lower)
Pheonix force (might be 1 spot higher)/ Living Tribunal
The true beyonders (not to be confused with the original Beyonder who is merely a part of a cosmic cube- The beyonders created the cosmic cubes very little is known about them)
Holder of Infinity gauntlet/ infinity being (might be 1 spot higher)
Eternity(Infinity)/Abraxas
Death/ Lord Chaos/Master Order/Mistress Love/hate etc
Galactus (Galactus has very variable power he is considered equal in importance as Eternity and Death but seems to be much less powerful) - I probably overrate him here.
Inbetweener (servant of Lord Chaos and master order)/The Stranger (4th face of Living tribunal??)
Celestials
Franklin Richards (he is considered one of the Celestials, maybe even more powerful)
Cosmic cubes/Molecule Man

Then there are some things like the Starband which threatens even the LT, the Anmoly who can resist even the power of the Infinity gauntlet... Or Eon/Epoch who powers Quasar...

Earth born highfather dieties like Odin and Zeus are way below on this list.
Magical deities like The Vishanti and the much weaker Dormammu, cytorrak are higher up but probably still below Cosmic cubes level.

And I don't get this point of arguing why Juggernaut can even compared to the Phoenix

Fanboys. Heck wolferine killed Jean grey, so Wolferine is a cosmic entity too.

[Yeung Gor]

Nop your wrong, Onslaught physically struck the Juggernaut from Canada all the way to New Jersey at the beginning of the Onslaught crossover with a blow that strangely knocked the Juggernaut unconscious. The lapse in portrayal would continue as Onslaught would later imprison the Juggernaut in the Cyttorak dimension by reaching into Cain Marko's chest and pulling out the ruby of Cyttorak, leaving Cain Marko powerless.

Uncanny X-Men #322

Writers are fallible. The Onslaught knocking Juggernaut out with a punch when Juggy is immune to physical attacks and has taken far more dangerous and powerful hit than that and didn't even phase him but Onslaught could hurt him like that? Make no sense. And when in the world is the gem inside of Cain? That part is bizarre. And he can physically rip it out of Juggernaut? That is also inconsistant with his invunerability.

But if we were to give the writers the benefit of the doubt, Onslaught possess the power to alter reality, thus all this that occur was like in a form of Twilight Zone, just bizarre and might just be in Juggernaut's head.

If I remember correctly, after the gem was strip out of Cain body and render him powerless, he still remain in the form of Juggernaut... why is that?

[Yeung Gor]

maybe i dont know much about pheonix and seems like u dont know it either. pheonix can destroy onslaught. And onslaught have killed off many marvel characters. What is inside the onlsought is Frank richards, son of the two fantastic fours, magneto and prof xaviers. Franks mind works like this; he can create or destroy anything with just a thought. If frank wants to destory juggernut he can just simply think of it and boom juggernut is dead. Or maybe take his powers away. juggernut can punch through any dimensions as he wants, he is just gona be dead without he even knowing about it. Why onslought cant kill cable is because cables mind is way stronger than onslought.

It seems like you don't know all of Juggernaut's power. Here is some of his greatest feats:

- Juggernaut took a direct hit from Stellaris, a Celestial Killer. Yes, Stellaris is being that can kill Celestials with that hit and it did nothing to Juggernaut? hmm...

- Juggernaut took Thor's Godbast which can hurt Galactus. A blast that can hurt a cosmic being but can't hurt Juggernaut? hmm...

- Juggernaut took blows from Hulk and not even flinch. hmm..

Here is a moment when Juggernaut got hurt real bad but demonstrates his power to the fullest. Since Juggernaut can't be hurt physically, one way to damage him is by magic.

- The Juggernaut once had the flesh magically peeled from his bones by D'spayre and continued to fight as a helmeted skeleton, stating that nothing can stop him.

$this->handle_bbcode_img_match('http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/Jugg_heal.jpg') This only serves to anger D'Spayre further and he commands Cain to die as he uses his new god-level powers to cruelly strip The Juggernaut's very flesh(and armor) from his bones and dissolve every organ from his body. "He still stands? He moves?" - D'Spayre

Do you know what that means? Juggernaut had no muscles, no organs, maybe even no brain too, just a skeleton and he kept fighting. You see, the Juggernaut is a mystical force that is unstoppable even without a body, he will fight on. Also, Juggernaut regenerates his body back very fast when something damages him. He will never die as long as the band of Cyttorak feeds him on going power.

So you see, even when Juggernaut is seemingly killed, he is still moving and fighting as the old saying goes, nothing can stop the Juggernaut not even "death". So even if Onslaught did the same and wish Juggernaut dead, it won't stop him, the mystical force will carry him through and regenerate him again in seconds.

Only way to stop Juggernaut is to kill Cyttorak and as long as Cyttorak is alive, Juggernaut will not be stop and that's why no character or beings higher has ever kill him. So in other words, you can kill Cyttorak but you can't kill Juggernaut.

[Guo Xiang]

Huh? So that makes Juggernaut the most powerful being in the universe? I mean, he can't be killed, right? o.o;

[Yeung Gor]

Huh? So that makes Juggernaut the most powerful being in the universe? I mean, he can't be killed, right? o.o;

No, Juggernaut isn't the most powerful. There are many beings more powerful than him. But being more powerful doesn't mean they are able to kill him or even beat him. One of the weakness most beings have is endurance, they can get tired and weaken where as Juggernaut does not need to sleep, eat, or breath and never gets tire as the the power is constantly flowing in his body so he can prevail against more powerful being by outlasting them in a fight. So usually, the more powerful beings prefer to knock Juggernaut far away or trap him somewhere instead of fighting an endless battle.

[atlantean0208]

No, Juggernaut isn't the most powerful. There are many beings more powerful than him. But being more powerful doesn't mean they are able to kill him or even beat him. One of the weakness most beings have is endurance, they can get tired and weaken where as Juggernaut does not need to sleep, eat, or breath and never gets tire as the the power is constantly flowing in his body so he can prevail against more powerful being by outlasting them in a fight. So usually, the more powerful beings prefer to knock Juggernaut far away or trap him somewhere instead of fighting an endless battle.

so you mean even Galactus cosmic power cannot damage him? come on...

[atlantean0208]

Writers are fallible. The Onslaught knocking Juggernaut out with a punch when Juggy is immune to physical attacks and has taken far more dangerous and powerful hit than that and didn't even phase him but Onslaught could hurt him like that? Make no sense. And when in the world is the gem inside of Cain? That part is bizarre. And he can physically rip it out of Juggernaut? That is also inconsistant with his invunerability.

But if we were to give the writers the benefit of the doubt, Onslaught possess the power to alter reality, thus all this that occur was like in a form of Twilight Zone, just bizarre and might just be in Juggernaut's head.

If I remember correctly, after the gem was strip out of Cain body and render him powerless, he still remain in the form of Juggernaut... why is that?

ONSLAUGHT doesn't use physical attacks, its a psionic attack. Hulk use physical attack, ONSLAUGHT not

[atlantean0208]

No, Juggernaut isn't the most powerful. There are many beings more powerful than him. But being more powerful doesn't mean they are able to kill him or even beat him. One of the weakness most beings have is endurance, they can get tired and weaken where as Juggernaut does not need to sleep, eat, or breath and never gets tire as the the power is constantly flowing in his body so he can prevail against more powerful being by outlasting them in a fight. So usually, the more powerful beings prefer to knock Juggernaut far away or trap him somewhere instead of fighting an endless battle.

Phoenix maybe too powerfull to compare to Jugg, why don't you try compare him to Namor

list of Namor fight:

- Namor defeats Captain America and knocks Giant Man out with his shield.
- Namor defeats the Hulk for the first time.
- Namor fights Apocalypse.
- Namor fights the Silver Surfer
- Namor defeats Iron Man
- Namor defeats Captain Marvel with two punches.
- Namor defeats Captain America
- Namor breaks through the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak

[Spanner]

Writers are fallible. The Onslaught knocking Juggernaut out with a punch when Juggy is immune to physical attacks That is also inconsistant with his invunerability.

My friend, you demostrate some knowledge of comics, so you should know that terms like "invunerability", "immunity" are never absolute, for most part against most normal every day opposition (xman like wolferine, cyclops etc), jugganunt is invulnerable yes, but when you talk about super high end cosmic level entities all bets are off.


Yawn, anyone can cherry pick some high end feats and make any character look good.

That's how fanboys work, when the writers obviously goofed and gave super high end feats that make no sense, it's good writing.

But when they show the character getting smacked by cosmic beings that clearly have the power to do it, then the writer's wrong...

LOL.

Only way to stop Juggernaut is to kill Cyttorak and as long as Cyttorak is alive,

Kill Cyttorak? For Cosmic level entities , easily done. Game over juggs.. He is stopped.

Juggernaut will not be stop and that's why no character or beings higher has ever kill him. So in other words, you can kill Cyttorak but you can't kill Juggernaut.

But you said you can stop Juggernaut by killing cyttorak. So you can kill the source of the power, but not the guy using the power? Okay.......

[Spanner]

so you mean even Galactus cosmic power cannot damage him? come on...

Actually I might buy that. Galactus is like the cosmic jobber, he loses to everyone, his power level are so variable depending on how hungry he is for example...

Heck I think even Spiderman beat him once... Nah.. he beat Firelord, a Herald of Galactus... who was i think about silver surfer level.

[Yeung Gor]

ONSLAUGHT doesn't use physical attacks, its a psionic attack. Hulk use physical attack, ONSLAUGHT not

Come to think of it. I like this intrepretation. Onslaught used psionic punch not a physical punch to knock out Juggernaut. I buy that since Juggernaut has only two types of weakness, either psionic attacks or magic.

But still he can't kill him.

[atlantean0208]

Actually I might buy that. Galactus is like the cosmic jobber, he loses to everyone, his power level are so variable depending on how hungry he is for example...

Heck I think even Spiderman beat him once... Nah.. he beat Firelord, a Herald of Galactus... who was i think about silver surfer level.

I don't mean as Jugg fighting Galactus, I mean the cosmic power itself. I don't think anyone can stand full power-up Cosmic Power blast head on without being knock out.

[Yeung Gor]

My friend, you demostrate some knowledge of comics, so you should know that terms like "invunerability", "immunity" are never absolute, for most part against most normal every day opposition (xman like wolferine, cyclops etc), jugganunt is invulnerable yes, but when you talk about super high end cosmic level entities all bets are off.


Yawn, anyone can cherry pick some high end feats and make any character look good.

That's how fanboys work, when the writers obviously goofed and gave super high end feats that make no sense, it's good writing.

But when they show the character getting smacked by cosmic beings that clearly have the power to do it, then the writer's wrong...

LOL.




Kill Cyttorak? For Cosmic level entities , easily done. Game over juggs.. He is stopped.



But you said you can stop Juggernaut by killing cyttorak. So you can kill the source of the power, but not the guy using the power? Okay.......

It would be nice if the writers stay a bit more consistant and congruent to the characters power. But we have to take what they dish out and when we compare any characters we have to take them at their peaks like when you compare two fighters in real life, you take them at their prime not at their weakest moments. And the strongest version of the Juggernaut has demonstrated impressive durability and feats.

Regarding your last statement. Yes, you can kill the source of the power Cyttorak but you can't kill the power itself which is Juggernaut, not about killing the guy who uses it. I'm sure there are other examples that in order to defeat a villian who is invincible you must go to the source of his power. And it should be quite logical as well why this is the case. Once anything damages the host, even to the point of having no flesh or organs, the power that fuels Juggernaut is infinite so it can regenerate the host and keeps on moving. Another way to look at it is, Cyttorak is continuously manifesting Juggernaut (Juggernaut is a mystical being), like an endless stream of water. So you must cut off his supply or it won't matter how many times you try and stop it.

[Yeung Gor]

I don't mean as Jugg fighting Galactus, I mean the cosmic power itself. I don't think anyone can stand full power-up Cosmic Power blast head on without being knock out.

You didn't say knock him out, you said "damage" him. And the answer is it won't damage Juggernaut at all but wether it will knock him out is a different story. I highly doubt it will knock him out either since only way to do so is by psionic attacks. As I mentioned in my earlier post, Juggernaut can take any physical attacks without harm as he demonstrated against Thor's God blast as well as Stellaris Celestial blast. These blasts can hurt comsic beings but as the comics has shown it doesn't hurt the Juggernaut when he is at full power.

[Exodus]

Nice to see people who know their comics here.




The original Beyonder in secret wars I, was certainly protrayed as being all powerful, above Eternity, Death and Galactus. I don't think the Living tribunial was created yet (have to check).

This was later retconed, in fact he was just one part of a cosmic cube, cosmic cubes are very very powerful, but are below the Celestials who are in one theory servants of Eternity.

In current marvel contunity, the Living Tribunal (LT) is typically considered Top dog. He is in charge of all the multiuniverses, while Eternity is in charge of one universe (616 universe is the name given the main stream Marvel). The LT claims to report to one even higher, often dubbed by fans as "The One above all" (not to be confused with the Celestial with the same name) but we don't know anything about this 'One above all' but most fans assume he is God.

It is said that the LT is truly multi-universal, because there is only one of him in all the multiuniverses, while even cosmic abstracts like Eternity have seperate copies in other universes.

Phoenix Force fans, argue that Pheonix is actually at least equal to LT, and most probably even superior, but that's another argument.

The holder of the infinity gauntlet, has proven to be superior to Eternity, but it's unclear if it gives him even power to defy the living tribunial. There's a scene where the LT orders Adam Warlock to give up the infinity gauntlet, and he does. But depending on how you interprete the conversation he does it because he knows he will lose if he fights or he might win but he doesn't want the universe destroyed in the struggle.

Certainly, after that event, the LT ruled that the infinity gems can never be used together to form the IG, so obviously indidivually, they don't have the power to defy the LT.

In "Marvel the end", Thanos, finds and uses "the Heart of the Universe", comparing it to the infinity gauntlet (which he has held and used), Thanos finds the infinity gauntelet inferior!

He proves it by destroying and absorbing every cosmic entity, even the Living tribunal into him!

I am of the view that the holder of the Heart of the Universe is truly omnipotent
though that is arguable of course.

The cosmic hierarchy goes something like this my opinion

The one above all
Holder of Heart of universe (might be 1 spots lower)
Pheonix force (might be 1 spot higher)/ Living Tribunal
The true beyonders (not to be confused with the original Beyonder who is merely a part of a cosmic cube- The beyonders created the cosmic cubes very little is known about them)
Holder of Infinity gauntlet/ infinity being (might be 1 spot higher)
Eternity(Infinity)/Abraxas
Death/ Lord Chaos/Master Order/Mistress Love/hate etc
Galactus (Galactus has very variable power he is considered equal in importance as Eternity and Death but seems to be much less powerful) - I probably overrate him here.
Inbetweener (servant of Lord Chaos and master order)/The Stranger (4th face of Living tribunal??)
Celestials
Franklin Richards (he is considered one of the Celestials, maybe even more powerful)
Cosmic cubes/Molecule Man

Then there are some things like the Starband which threatens even the LT, the Anmoly who can resist even the power of the Infinity gauntlet... Or Eon/Epoch who powers Quasar...

Earth born highfather dieties like Odin and Zeus are way below on this list.
Magical deities like The Vishanti and the much weaker Dormammu, cytorrak are higher up but probably still below Cosmic cubes level.



Fanboys. Heck wolferine killed Jean grey, so Wolferine is a cosmic entity too.

PF is to high on that list and Franklin Richards is just a reality warping mutant. Even though he is extremely powerful someone like High Evo. or Doom can easily built a device to negate his powers just like Leech can.

there are plenty of other mutants with similar powerlevel like Nate Grey, Legion, Proteus, Scarlett Witch (HOM) etc.

Molecule man is said to have to potential to be equal to IG since he is human and has the potential to evolve futher...

[Spanner]

PF is to high on that list and Franklin Richards is just a reality warping mutant. Even though he is extremely powerful someone like High Evo. or Doom can easily built a device to negate his powers just like Leech can.

Franklin Richards is a character who's powers is extremely variable because of his age. At his peak , he is at least a Celestial level entity, that is way beyond High evo or Dr doom.

Of course it is possible for Mr Fanastic level technology to cage FR's power, but it might be because FR wants it too or merely inmaturity in the use of his power.

A full powered FR would be beyond these technologies.

there are plenty of other mutants with similar powerlevel like Nate Grey, Legion, Proteus, Scarlett Witch (HOM) etc.

You listed mostly Omega level mutants, so all of them are mad powerful at their peak. I won't comment on Scarlett witch because I haven't read all of House of M yet. But none of them (with the exception of maybe Scarlett Witch) have claimed Celestial level power.

FR is so powerful, he goes beyond even omega level mutants, only Jean grey (and her alternates including daughters) surpass that level.

Molecule man is said to have to potential to be equal to IG since he is human and has the potential to evolve futher...

Nonsense. MM is equal to a cosmic cube, this is way way below IG level.

[Spanner]

It would be nice if the writers stay a bit more consistant and congruent to the characters power. But we have to take what they dish out and when we compare any characters we have to take them at their peaks like when you compare two fighters in real life, you take them at their prime not at their weakest moments. And the strongest version of the Juggernaut has demonstrated impressive durability and feats.

At their prime, looks at best feats, PF trumps Juggs any day of the week and twice on sunday.

Regarding your last statement. Yes, you can kill the source of the power Cyttorak but you can't kill the power itself which is Juggernaut,

Okay so you saying once the source of the power is gone (killed), the power still remains... Logical?

Once anything damages the host, even to the point of having no flesh or organs, the power that fuels Juggernaut is infinite so

The power is not infinite. It is cyttorak.

it can regenerate the host and keeps on moving. Another way to look at it is, Cyttorak is continuously manifesting Juggernaut (Juggernaut is a mystical being), like an endless stream of water. So you must cut off his supply or it won't matter how many times you try and stop it.

Yes, and any low level cosmic being can shut off the supply with a snap of the fingers...

[chuy605]

Wow Spanner you got some really cool information about Juggernaut....I'm amaze.

Any chance you read Spider-Man??


I think Killing Juggernaut is easy, just paid alots of money to the comic writers and they can make up any BS to end Juggernaut's life.