Death Match: DFBB vs. XF

[augster123]

just wondering since i never read much of DGSD, who was the best swordsman that XF fought against? and are there some similarities/differences that can be drawn between that persons sword art and DFBB's?

[CC]

XAJH contains grandiose descriptions but really, even Ren Yingying could see DFBB go towards her and get out of the way in time.

Haha! Thats quite true.

[ChronoReverse]

Haha! Thats quite true.

She was also quite a distance away. And she still got pricked (again the needle handicap).

And DFBB was also being pressed by three strong fighters who could do nothing but stab him in the back after the fact.

[CC]

She was also quite a distance away. And she still got pricked (again the needle handicap).

And DFBB was also being pressed by three strong fighters who could do nothing but stab him in the back after the fact.

We don't know how far, after all, it was in a bedroom. And DFBB wasn't caring about the 3 enemies. If they could stab him in time after he rushed towards the bed, they couldn't have been that far behind him. If DFBB was _that_ fast, he could have pricked RYY and turned around to defend because they wouldn't have been able to catch up with him. Unless the room was small, which begs the questions of how RYY could move away.

Its another plot device thingy...

[Whsie]

OK, let's argue.



That only happened to a lower tier fighter. And if Dongfang did not have any weapons, what would he do since Sunflower Manuscript is a SWORD art? Most likely he would perform much worse empty handed.

As for Xiao Feng, he was killing opponents left and right without blinking. He may not be as fast as Dongfang but his illustration of quickly annihilating opponents is certainly proven in that fight.



Xiao Feng's moves can be seen, and so can Dongfang Bubai's.

When Xiao Feng was fighting Xunnan, he had ZERO intention of killing him. He just wanted to counter it which was very easy for him to do.

During Xiao Feng's ghostly movements, you say that the opponents are far below the level of the 3 SPW warriors. How can we be sure when there are 50 opponents present who are superior to Evil #4's martial arts?

It's not true that "SPW warriors could not do anything except to save their butt." Dongfang Bubai was not the one attacking, the SPW warriors were attacking. Dongfang Bubai was defending. "could not do anything" is also misleading b/c Linghu Chong could keep Dongfang busy by launching a storm of attacks which forced Dongfang to either block or evade. So they're not totally helpless against Dongfang.

As for how Xiao Feng can hope to cope with Dongfang, he has good defense mechanism too:

这时他酒意已有十分，内力鼓荡，酒意更渐渐涌将上来，双掌飞舞，逼得众高手无法近身。

Lastly, I know we're pitting Dongfang directly against Xiao Feng... but I would just like to point out in no way do I envision Dongfang outperforming Xiao Feng at Juxian Manor. Xiao Feng's killing rage in that fight was simply unmatchable throughout the realm. What does this mean? In terms of martial arts and combat results, some situations will be more favorable for Dongfang, while other situations will favor Xiao Feng.

For that part, it was 突然之间，众人只觉眼前有一团粉红色的物事一闪，似乎东方不败的身子动了一动。 and then later death. Based on JY's word, all the Elites could see was that DFBB's body slightly moving, but DIDN'T see the actual attack. As for XF, his opponents can still see his palms flying all around suggesting the attack was still visible. And don't forget, this view is from regular JY Manor people, who are most likely inferior to the SPW Elites.
XF may be killing off faster, but that means nothing on how XF would do against DFBB.

Ok, one based on the quote above, even in the eyes of the Elites, movement is difficult to see for the Elites. At the very least more difficult compared to see XF's movement.
One such example comparable to Xuannan's case is when LHC used as what JY described as a "extremely fast" strike; however, LHC soon realized not only did DFBB block out his sword, but DFBB also marked his face, and this happened without LHC realizing it until after the attack. To me, this means that LHC had trouble seeing DFBB and it was certainly much more impressive than what XF did.

Now, despite the derterioation theory, I wouldn't think the SPW Elites are below that of the best in JY Manor. To my knowledge, the best at JY Manor were the 2 Xuan generation monks. And even those 2 I wouldn't say are > to SPW Elites. In other words, the credibility of the SPW Elite's eyes are still credible enough for us to make an assessment.

Not completly true. DFBB was evade, block, counter all within that moment. XF was just counter. And keep in mind that he had 3 other people attacking him at the same time. So if DFBB wanted to do all 3 of those, he had to do them quick; however, based on the book, DFBB was also having a easy time since he wasn't breathing hard or anything that suggested fatigue 三人兵刃上都是贯注了内力，风声大作。东方不败却不发出半点声息。In other words, DFBB's case once again seems superior.

That flying palms of defense may not work. As even an newb can probably realize, DFBB is so much faster than the JY Manor people. LHC all gave "extremely fast" strikes, yet DFBB blocked them all effortlessly. When XF is fighting like that, he WILL have an open spot or weak area opened up. The only reason why the people at JY Manor wouldn't be able do anything is because 1) they're too scared to get near 2) XF is too fast for THESE people 3) these people themselves simply don't have the speed to get to the spot on time. In other words, if DFBB was fighting, I doubt XF could do what he did because when his palm is flying at 80 degrees, his 260 degree spot is wide open for attack and personally from the descriptions, DFBB may very possibly get in an attack AND come back to his original spot.

I agree that XF may be able to perform better and prettier at JY Manor, but that doesn't mean that XF will be just as successful against DFBB himself as what arts you have can really dictate your performance.

[bpeh123]

dfbb is how many times better than his peers while xf is not that much far from the other heroes. the only way we can compare them is to use dugu jiu jian as a gauge. if xf dragon palms is 5 or 6 times better than dugu jiu jian, then i think he will have a chance of beating dongfang..

[PJ]

By your logic whsie, even the Sweeper Monk would not be a match for Dongfang Bubai. If what you proclaim is true--that speed is the deciding factor in combat--then Sweeper Monk, Shi Potian, Huang Shang, The inventor of 6MSJ etc would have no chance against someone like Dongfang Bubai. So, think about that.

Although speed may not be the emphasis of most advanced martial arts, I think it is only logical for advanced martial artists to realize its importance, and thus practice diligently to become highly proficient in speed. Furthermore, speed seems to come naturally with advanced martial arts, as You Tanzhi demonstrated. If You Tanzhi with basic understanding of martial arts can move extremely fast, it's not hard to imagine Xiao Feng being more agile and adaptable compared to You.

When Linghu Chong reflected on Lin Pingzhi and DFBB's method of action, his exact thoughts were: 令狐冲细思林平之这一招剑法，剑招本身并没甚么特异，只是出手实在太过突兀，事先绝无半分征兆，这一招不论向谁攻出，就算是绝顶高手，只怕也难以招架。当日在黑木崖上围攻东方不败，他手中只持一枚绣花 针，可是四大高手竟然无法与之相抗，此刻细想，并非由于东方不败内功奇高，也不是由于招数极巧 ，只是他行动如电，攻守进退，全然出于对手意料之外。

Even more than speed, Linghu Chong thought the unmistakable reason for Dongfang Bubai and Lin Pingzhi's power was their sudden, unpredictable moves. Now, take a look at a description of Pre-30 years Xiao Yuanshan in combat, and see how similar he was described in terms of his method of action:

那辽人双臂斜兜，不知用什么擒拿手法，便夺到了我们两位兄弟的兵刃，跟着一刺一劈，当场杀了二人。他有时从 马背上飞纵而下，有时又跃回马背，兔起鹘落，行如鬼魅。不错，他真如是个魔鬼化身，东边一冲，杀了一人；西面这么一转又杀了一人。只片刻之间，我们二十一人之中，已有九人死在他手下。”

可是那人武功实在太过奇特厉害，一招一式，总是从决计料想不到的方位袭来。

So, Xiao Yuanshan's technique = totally unpredictable. Within a moment, he had killed off 9 warriors.

Dongfang Bubai needed to hit Tong Baixiong FOUR times to kill him... Xiao Yuanshan and Xiao Feng simply touch you once, and you're finished. I don't think Dongfang Bubai's actual hits are as powerful as Xiao Feng's.

One more note before I finish this post... Xiao Feng's method to victory comprised of 4 factors: 更快、更猛、更狠、更精 --> superiority in speed, superiority in fierceness, superiority in aggressiveness, and superiority in exiquisitness. Dongfang Bubai at most only comprises 2 factors: superiority in speed and superiority in unpredictability. Whether those 2 factors are enough to overcome Xiao Feng's overall superiority, is highly questionable.

[Dennis Chen]

How can we use Dugu Jiu Jian as the gauge when it didn't even exist in DGSD?

[Snafu3721]

How can we use Dugu Jiu Jian as the gauge when it didn't even exist in DGSD?

We technically can't...
But I guess we can use some assumptions--

DGQB was mentioned in ROCH. He is perceived to be an extremely accomplished martial artist, even more so than the Greats (although it's not quite proven).

If that's the case, then DGQB > than H7G and GJ.
so theoretically DG9J is > XL18P and Dog beating stick.

Since XF's signature art is XL18P, then LHC's DG9J may be able to counter it.
And since LHC couldn't handle DFBB... then XF shouldn't be able to handle DFBB. Especially since DFBB was fighting not just LHC, but a 2 other fighters with decent internal.

It's not a perfect argument, nor is it something I think is completely valid. But it can be somethine to be discussed and explored...

[wang23]

We technically can't...
But I guess we can use some assumptions--

DGQB was mentioned in ROCH. He is perceived to be an extremely accomplished martial artist, even more so than the Greats (although it's not quite proven).

If that's the case, then DGQB > than H7G and GJ.
so theoretically DG9J is > XL18P and Dog beating stick.

Since XF's signature art is XL18P, then LHC's DG9J may be able to counter it.
And since LHC couldn't handle DFBB... then XF shouldn't be able to handle DFBB. Especially since DFBB was fighting not just LHC, but a 2 other fighters with decent internal.

It's not a perfect argument, nor is it something I think is completely valid. But it can be somethine to be discussed and explored...

I thought even Fung Ching Yeung over many years has yet to truly master DG9J. So just because LHC who's a relatively new practictioner of the art couldn't handle DFBB, how does that prove XF can't as well? If even Dugu couldn't handle DFBB then maybe that would be valid. But I thought it's still undecided whether DG9J is even Dugu's strongest technique?

[augster123]

I thought even Fung Ching Yeung over many years has yet to truly master DG9J. So just because LHC who's a relatively new practictioner of the art couldn't handle DFBB, how does that prove XF can't as well? If even Dugu couldn't handle DFBB then maybe that would be valid. But I thought it's still undecided whether DG9J is even Dugu's strongest technique?

actually, now thinking back, DG9J can counter Sunflower Manual Sword Art, it's just that LHC lacked the speed to do so. Is XF faster than LHC? most likely but its debatable. Is Sunflower Manual Sword Art better than Dog Beating Stick Technique? most likely but again its debatable.

Hand-to-Hand Combat = XF by far, fight won't last more than 300 moves before XF dragonpalms DFBB to his death
Weapons Combat = DFBB holds the edge, fight would last over 2000 moves with XF slowly losing to loss of blood cuz of needle/sword pokes

If both competed in internal energy, who do u think would win?

[Dennis Chen]

actually, now thinking back, DG9J can counter Sunflower Manual Sword Art, it's just that LHC lacked the speed to do so. Is XF faster than LHC? most likely but its debatable. Is Sunflower Manual Sword Art better than Dog Beating Stick Technique? most likely but again its debatable.

Hand-to-Hand Combat = XF by far, fight won't last more than 300 moves before XF dragonpalms DFBB to his death
Weapons Combat = DFBB holds the edge, fight would last over 2000 moves with XF slowly losing to loss of blood cuz of needle/sword pokes

If both competed in internal energy, who do u think would win?

Xiao Feng is not a marathon fighter. He was going to lose out to You Tanzhi and Murong Fu had the fight lasted long.

[Huang Rong]

: My most favorite quote whenever I get involved in a Dugu-debate:
中种种奥妙精微之处，这才发挥得淋漓尽致。独孤求败如若复生，又或风清扬亲临，能遇
到这样的对手，也当欢喜不尽。

[PJ]

: My most favorite quote whenever I get involved in a Dugu-debate:
中种种奥妙精微之处，这才发挥得淋漓尽致。独孤求败如若复生，又或风清扬亲临，能遇
到这样的对手，也当欢喜不尽。

I remember when Laviathan first posted that quote a few years ago... before then I'd never seen that quote posted anywhere; afterwards it has made its way into various topics on this forum probably no less than 30 times.

Not to mention, a series of magnificent spoofs have been produced based on this quote, including one of my favorite spoofs ever by MisterM.

[augster123]

Xiao Feng is not a marathon fighter. He was going to lose out to You Tanzhi and Murong Fu had the fight lasted long.

yeah YTZ was the main key factor with his freakishly huge poisonous internal energy.
so would u place DFBB as higher in internal energy more so than YTZ (+MRF)?

[bpeh123]

i think there is no way we can compare tianlong bb and xiaoau unless there is something common among them, ie dugu jiu jian. skills in tlbb does not exists in xiao ao, and there is no way we can gauge the skills in both books. therefore, there is also no way to gauge the speed and skills of xiaofeng vs dongfang. jinyong has been exaggerating in his description of xf and dongfang. using his description to decide who will win is also not accurate.

to me, the answer to the question of xf vs dongfang will lie in the debate of dugu jiu jian vs dragon palms. yang guo learns abit of dugu skills, probably a variant of dugu jiu jian, so we can use that as a gauge. how many times is dragon palms better than yang guo sword skills?

[Snafu3721]

i think there is no way we can compare tianlong bb and xiaoau unless there is something common among them, ie dugu jiu jian. skills in tlbb does not exists in xiao ao, and there is no way we can gauge the skills in both books. therefore, there is also no way to gauge the speed and skills of xiaofeng vs dongfang. jinyong has been exaggerating in his description of xf and dongfang. using his description to decide who will win is also not accurate.

to me, the answer to the question of xf vs dongfang will lie in the debate of dugu jiu jian vs dragon palms. yang guo learns abit of dugu skills, probably a variant of dugu jiu jian, so we can use that as a gauge. how many times is dragon palms better than yang guo sword skills?

That's the argument I used earlier. It seems the only way to connect the two novels would be to use the Condor trilogy. We still see remnants of DGSD martial arts in condor trilogy and in SOD we see remnants of ROCH.

But that depends on how powerful XF was in comparison to GJ (which we could debate forever as in previous threads) and how powerful LHC is when compared to YG or DGQB.

[Whsie]

By your logic whsie, even the Sweeper Monk would not be a match for Dongfang Bubai. If what you proclaim is true--that speed is the deciding factor in combat--then Sweeper Monk, Shi Potian, Huang Shang, The inventor of 6MSJ etc would have no chance against someone like Dongfang Bubai. So, think about that.

Although speed may not be the emphasis of most advanced martial arts, I think it is only logical for advanced martial artists to realize its importance, and thus practice diligently to become highly proficient in speed. Furthermore, speed seems to come naturally with advanced martial arts, as You Tanzhi demonstrated. If You Tanzhi with basic understanding of martial arts can move extremely fast, it's not hard to imagine Xiao Feng being more agile and adaptable compared to You.

When Linghu Chong reflected on Lin Pingzhi and DFBB's method of action, his exact thoughts were: 令狐冲细思林平之这一招剑法，剑招本身并没甚么特异，只是出手实在太过突兀，事先绝无半分征兆，这一招不论向谁攻出，就算是绝顶高手，只怕也难以招架。当日在黑木崖上围攻东方不败，他手中只持一枚绣花 针，可是四大高手竟然无法与之相抗，此刻细想，并非由于东方不败内功奇高，也不是由于招数极巧 ，只是他行动如电，攻守进退，全然出于对手意料之外。

Even more than speed, Linghu Chong thought the unmistakable reason for Dongfang Bubai and Lin Pingzhi's power was their sudden, unpredictable moves. Now, take a look at a description of Pre-30 years Xiao Yuanshan in combat, and see how similar he was described in terms of his method of action:

那辽人双臂斜兜，不知用什么擒拿手法，便夺到了我们两位兄弟的兵刃，跟着一刺一劈，当场杀了二人。他有时从 马背上飞纵而下，有时又跃回马背，兔起鹘落，行如鬼魅。不错，他真如是个魔鬼化身，东边一冲，杀了一人；西面这么一转又杀了一人。只片刻之间，我们二十一人之中，已有九人死在他手下。”

可是那人武功实在太过奇特厉害，一招一式，总是从决计料想不到的方位袭来。

So, Xiao Yuanshan's technique = totally unpredictable. Within a moment, he had killed off 9 warriors.

Dongfang Bubai needed to hit Tong Baixiong FOUR times to kill him... Xiao Yuanshan and Xiao Feng simply touch you once, and you're finished. I don't think Dongfang Bubai's actual hits are as powerful as Xiao Feng's.

One more note before I finish this post... Xiao Feng's method to victory comprised of 4 factors: 更快、更猛、更狠、更精 --> superiority in speed, superiority in fierceness, superiority in aggressiveness, and superiority in exiquisitness. Dongfang Bubai at most only comprises 2 factors: superiority in speed and superiority in unpredictability. Whether those 2 factors are enough to overcome Xiao Feng's overall superiority, is highly questionable.

Well, let me ask you this, how do we know SM's limit in speed? So that is unanswerable there.

While speed is not the most important factor, but if a fighter is near your overall level or just somewhat inferior, then speed can be the deciding factor.

Not exactly, DFBB has IMO, the most important factor along with speed that you didn't mention. He has accuracy. He is damn accurate. Going back to my quote, LHC used 4 straight "really fast" strikes yet DFBB blocked each them knocking them off. Now, to find the exact point and block it with a needle is damn accurate. Furthermore to have that accuracy when DFBB is in his stable mode, he also has stability/firmness. As noted in the fight, if it weren't for the fact that LHC angered DFBB and make him less firm, DFBB would have clearly overwhelmed LHC's strike. This also shows firmness.

So in the end, DFBB's is more sophisticated and controlled in the way of 4 factors: extreme speed, firmness, accuracy, unpredictable.
Meanwhile, XF is just speed (not extreme), fierce, aggresive, exiquisiteness.

Overall, I still favor DFBB on those factors.

[augster123]

would it be a long fight or short fight? what do u think?

[PJ]

Well, let me ask you this, how do we know SM's limit in speed? So that is unanswerable there.

Sweeper Monk was never described as incredibly fast like Dongfang Bubai. When he tapped Murong Bo, everyone saw his move. Based on the evidences, Sweeper Monk < Dongfang Bubai in speed.

Not exactly, DFBB has IMO, the most important factor along with speed that you didn't mention. He has accuracy. He is damn accurate. Going back to my quote, LHC used 4 straight "really fast" strikes yet DFBB blocked each them knocking them off. Now, to find the exact point and block it with a needle is damn accurate. Furthermore to have that accuracy when DFBB is in his stable mode, he also has stability/firmness. As noted in the fight, if it weren't for the fact that LHC angered DFBB and make him less firm, DFBB would have clearly overwhelmed LHC's strike. This also shows firmness.

Actually, I think your statements reveal Dongfang Bubai's lack of accuracy and his weakness with anger. Have we ever seen Xiao Feng misdirecting a strike due to anger? No! he performs better when he's boiled up, whereas Dongfang performs worse. And That is a fundamental difference between Xiao and Dongfang.

I would like to hear your explanation on how Sweeper Monk would not lose to Dongfang Bubai if Sweeper Monk can't touch Dongfang due to inferiority in speed.