Would DOMD be a better wuxia story if WSB were at least a competent martial artist?

[Ken Cheng]

DUKE OF MT. DEER is the story that it is largely what it is because its protagonist, unlike almost every other wuxia protagonist, was from the beginning to the end of the story, never a competent martial artist. Wai Siu Bo never achieved his goals by using his personal martial arts (because he hardly had any to speak of), but through his wits and his luck.

I've read that in the first edition of DOMD, however, Wai Siu Bo, though far from elite, became at least a competent martial artist (nobody who posed any threat to the elite-level fighters of the DOMD era, but far from helpless and could hold his own against average martial artists of the period). Was the story any better as a result? Would you have liked DOMD better as a wuxia story if Wai Siu Bo had demonstrated at least moderately competent martial arts skills to go with his wit and luck?

[LuNaR]

nope because then he will be overpowered being smart + skilled and story would end up like LOCH/ROCH/HSDS where GJ/YG/ZWJ are the strongest but have the worst luck, etc etc.

the luck + wit really makes the story.

[Ken Cheng]

nope because then he will be overpowered being smart + skilled and story would end up like LOCH/ROCH/HSDS where GJ/YG/ZWJ are the strongest but have the worst luck, etc etc.

the luck + wit really makes the story.

Well, it's like I wrote (you need to read more carefully), Wai Siu Bo would never become *close* to an elite fighter, but would be an at least competent one...in other words, he'd have little chance of winning any fights against the likes of the Divine Dragon Cult Leader, but he'd at least be able to protect himself against the average martial artist of the day until help arrived or his luck kicked in.

[pannonian]

From when he picked up Shuang Er, he nearly always had at least one seriously competent bodyguard protecting him, capable of fighting off any average fighter. And when he was off on official missions, he'd have the Divine Dragon fighters (the 2 nest best fighters after Hong Antong) plus the Tian Di Hui fighters, plus Shuang Er, plus a conventional bodyguard of Valiant Cavalry. Outside the Palace and the generals in the field (and a number of those were loyal to him), few, and probably not even Hong Antong himself, were as heavily protected as Wei Xiaobao. And after the Divine Dragon Island was no more and he dropped the Tian Di Hui brethren, he had a whole army under his command, at the peak of Qing efficiency. In the Jinyongiverse, Zhang Wuji might nominally have had more power at his fingertips, but otherwise, not even Guo Jing and Yang Guo commanded the amount of martial power that Wei Xiaobao had.

[Ken Cheng]

One thing I noticed in DOMD '84: it seemed like right away, Wai Siu Bo (as Siu Gwai Tze) was able to give K'ang Hsi (as Siu Yeun Tze) a decent fight. I don't know if this is a TVB modification or if K'ang Hsi was going easy on WSB, but their first fight, though still clearly in K'ang Hsi's advantage, seemed less one-sided than you'd expect. Wai Siu Bo seemed to hold his own for a while. Perhaps experience in streetfighting?

[pannonian]

One thing I noticed in DOMD '84: it seemed like right away, Wai Siu Bo (as Siu Gwai Tze) was able to give K'ang Hsi (as Siu Yeun Tze). I don't know if this is a TVB modification or if K'ang Hsi was going easy on WSB, but their first fight, though still clearly in K'ang Hsi's advantage, seemed less one-sided than you'd expect. Wai Siu Bo seemed to hold his own for a while. Perhaps experience in streetfighting?

The fights were more even than that. Xiao Guizi gave Xiao Xuanzi a run for his money, possibly a 55-45 or 60-40 share in XXZ's favour, for weeks, before the study incident with Oboi took the competition out of their relationship. Xiao Xuanzi had to keep improving and learning new stances to keep ahead of Xiao Guizi. That one brief period of genuine childhood was why Kang Xi counted these fights as one of Wei Xiaobao's great merits.

[Ken Cheng]

The fights were more even than that. Xiao Guizi gave Xiao Xuanzi a run for his money, possibly a 55-45 or 60-40 share in XXZ's favour, for weeks, before the study incident with Oboi took the competition out of their relationship. Xiao Xuanzi had to keep improving and learning new stances to keep ahead of Xiao Guizi. That one brief period of genuine childhood was why Kang Xi counted these fights as one of Wei Xiaobao's great merits.

How did Wai Siu Bao acquire such skill, however? At this early stage, he hadn't learned any skills from the few martial artists he'd met (Mao 18 and a few others). Was it just simple streetfighting techniques?

[pannonian]

How did Wai Siu Bao acquire such skill, however? At this early stage, he hadn't learned any skills from the few martial artists he'd met (Mao 18 and a few others). Was it just simple streetfighting techniques?

In the first fight, it was pure street fighting, with XXZ seemingly subduing XGZ, only for XGZ to hit back just as XXZ let his guard down. In subsequent fights, it was a duel between what Mao Dongzhu taught and what Hai Gonggong taught.

[Ken Cheng]

Here's another thing to consider: Wai Siu Bo was a lazy a$$ who never voluntarily, willingly practiced martial arts, while K'ang Hsi practiced diligently and regularly. Even so, K'ang Hsi was never able to gain much of an advantage over Wai Siu Bo. Is this proof that Wai Siu Bo had latent martial arts talents that he was too lazy to develop?

[pannonian]

They were both practising diligently at the time. Both had nothing else they'd rather do, both enjoyed the rivalry, and both wanted to get the better of the other. Later on, Wei Xiaobao had plenty of other things to do, and his enthusiasm for martial arts disappeared.