Would any wulin man choose the Qwai Fa Bo Deen if other elite skills were available?

[HuntingX]

We don't know one way or another whether DFBB beat up RWX in a fight and deposed him, or conspired and never fought him at all.

We DO know that AFTER ascension DFBB never lost a fight.

Your theory is that he hid KHBD in his old martial arts, which is possible.

But it's equally possible he didn't really train it in earnest until AFTER he went into seclusion, which is also AFTER he wtfpwned all of Wulin.

[ChronoReverse]

We know he trained it before. He said he went into seclusion and ignored his duties as chief as he trained KHBD and lost his drive (in more ways than one). It's not certain when he started of course, but we know it was definitely before his seclusion. It's even possible that he trained before he took over.


We also know he didn't beat RWX in a fair fight but took him while RWX was weak. That is, when RWX was all occupied with fixing XXDF. We know this because if DFBB could've taken RWX at full power, he'd have just done so. There would be no need to wait for RWX to be distracted, no need to build up a conspiracy around it all. Also, RWX would not have said that he was "fooled by DFBB's sweet talk".

But the most important part is, he could not have been DFBB until after he deposed of RWX. And if he pretending that he was not as powerful than RWX before deposing him, DFBB would not have held his title until after RWX was gone either.

This doesn't preclude DFBB having been more powerful, but it would not have been provably more powerful because he wouldn't have defeated RWX and risked his ire before RWX was out of the picture.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Quick note; whether or not DFBB was really undefeated has nothing to do with how skilled DFBB was pre-KHBD; it only shows that he was skilled. But we can pretty much assume that he never fought Fang Zheng, Chong Xu, Feng Qingyang, etc. etc. etc.; in fact, he probably never even fought many (if any) Zuo Lengchan calibre fighters (since there really are very few on that level within XAJH). In the JY universe, there are many fighters sprinkled throughout who were 'undefeated' for a long time and weren't even that good (such as Lan Tianhe); in DFBB's case, it was a combination of being undefeated, and from being able to take the position of Sect Leader over from Ren Woxing, an incredibly feared member of the jianghu.

DFBB was certainly a very powerful pugilist pre-KHBD, but claiming he was the best under heaven is a much huger stretch.

[CC]

Another point, if DFBB was already so L337 before KHBD, why would he be tempted to de-nut himself by something that did not offer a significant boost. After all, this was a man with several concubines. He clearly enjoyed his manhood before KHBD.

[cristal entity]

" First, I had to castrate myself to train my qi, then I had to refine pellets and intake herbs." Dong Fang Bu Bai


great way to enhance nei gong

[HuntingX]

We have no reason to assume that he didn't fight and defeat the best of Wulin. On the contrary, his reputation was far far far above any other sect leader/shaolin/wudang etc.

When Linghu Chong was making up BS about rankings, he still ranked DFBB as #1 regardless, and the way he spoke about him conveyed the general sense of awe everyone felt.

It just seems highly unlikely he was not that good and conned his way into making EVERYONE believe he was #1.

Yes, some people are undefeated for a period of time, but that's not DFBB's reputation.

He/It was #1 under heaven by general proclamation. This is completely different.

I cannot think of a case where someone is recognized as #1 under heaven and then loses to another character.

[Ren Wo Xing]

HuntingX, that was derived in large part from being the leader of the Sun Moon sect, which even in XAJH was still the largest and most powerful sect in the entire world.

[ChronoReverse]

Besides, he's completely off the point already. There's plenty of time between DFBB usurping power and when he went into seclusion to show the world his tremendous power.

[Ken Cheng]

Qwai Fa Bo Deen is presented as the most powerful martial art to appear in SMILING PROUD WANDERER. Hence, men such as Dung Fong But Bai, Ngok But Kwun, and Lam Ping Tze aspired to learn it...even at the cost of their manhood.

We assume that they did so because they were desperate to attain martial arts supremacy, and in their time, there was no more powerful martial art available (at least of which they were aware).

But don't you think that was circumstantial? That the Qwai Fa Bo Deen became "worth it" only because no better alternatives seemed available?

Let's assume that these same men, before their castrations, were offered the Qwai Fa Bo Deen...but also on the same table with that manual are the complete manuals for (the original, DGSD) Bak Ming Sun Gung, (the original, DGSD) Shaolin Yik Gun Ging (not the somewhat weaker version that did appear in SPW), the Dali Deun Family's 1 Yeung Finger Technique/6 Mak Divine Swords, Hong Lung 18 Palms, the 9 Yum Jen Ging, the 9 Yeung Jen Ging, the Ming Cult's Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee, and Tibet's Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung (of Golden Wheel Monk fame): if all these manuals were available and the likes of Dung Fong, Ngok, and Lam were allowed to pick any one of them, would any of them *still* choose the Qwai Fa Bo Deen? It seems that any of those other manuals, if mastered, would get them comparable results without the sacrifice of their precious manhood.

[tape]

Qwai Fa Bo Deen is presented as the most powerful martial art to appear in SMILING PROUD WANDERER. Hence, men such as Dung Fong But Bai, Ngok But Kwun, and Lam Ping Tze aspired to learn it...even at the cost of their manhood.

We assume that they did so because they were desperate to attain martial arts supremacy, and in their time, there was no more powerful martial art available (at least of which they were aware).

But don't you think that was circumstantial? That the Qwai Fa Bo Deen became "worth it" only because no better alternatives seemed available?

Let's assume that these same men, before their castrations, were offered the Qwai Fa Bo Deen...but also on the same table with that manual are the complete manuals for (the original, DGSD) Bak Ming Sun Gung, (the original, DGSD) Shaolin Yik Gun Ging (not the somewhat weaker version that did appear in SPW), the Dali Deun Family's 1 Yeung Finger Technique/6 Mak Divine Swords, Hong Lung 18 Palms, the 9 Yum Jen Ging, the 9 Yeung Jen Ging, the Ming Cult's Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee, and Tibet's Lung Jeung Bor Yeh Gung (of Golden Wheel Monk fame): if all these manuals were available and the likes of Dung Fong, Ngok, and Lam were allowed to pick any one of them, would any of them *still* choose the Qwai Fa Bo Deen? It seems that any of those other manuals, if mastered, would get them comparable results without the sacrifice of their precious manhood.

Ken, this is a bit of a no brainer isn't it? Who in the world would choose the Sunflower Manual when the others have no drawbacks?

[Ken Cheng]

Ken, this is a bit of a no brainer isn't it? Who in the world would choose the Sunflower Manual when the others have no drawbacks?

You'd think, so my conclusion is that the *only* reason that those guys chose the Qwai Fa Bo Deen is because all the other great arts mentioned were no longer available.

[tape]

You'd think, so my conclusion is that the *only* reason that those guys chose the Qwai Fa Bo Deen is because all the other great arts mentioned were no longer available.

Quite possible. Yue Buqun's Zixia Shengong might be the weakest "Shen gong" we've seen!

[Trien Chieu]

You'd think, so my conclusion is that the *only* reason that those guys chose the Qwai Fa Bo Deen is because all the other great arts mentioned were no longer available.

Totally agree. QFBD/PXJF is an option when there is no other good alternative. Only people in desperate would choose it. Lin Ping Zhi's dad/grandpa should look at the manual before the entire family is massacre. After look at the manual, they should make 1000 copies of it and spread them out so everyone could get it and telling them his family wants nothing to do with that martial art so they don't after his family for the manual. They would be saved and let the idiots practice them.

Where are 9 yin, 9 yang, 18 dragon palm, and other martial arts from condor trilogy and DGSD??? They can't be disappear just like that. The question is where are they?

[ChronoReverse]

I think it depends.

YJJ was available and honestly we have no reason to think it diluted in power (please don't bring up YTZ because his freak power boost was explicitly mentioned to be not just YJJ). Yet its power, while greater than RWX's (who was already crazy powerful), is fairly insignificant next to the power of the flawed KHBD that DFBB used.


Honestly, I don't think any other skill in JY's lore (except maybe the Yue maiden) dominated over all the rest as completely and by such a huge degree as KHBD did.

[tape]

I think it depends.

YJJ was available and honestly we have no reason to think it diluted in power (please don't bring up YTZ because his freak power boost was explicitly mentioned to be not just YJJ). Yet its power, while greater than RWX's (who was already crazy powerful), is fairly insignificant next to the power of the flawed KHBD that DFBB used.


Honestly, I don't think any other skill in JY's lore (except maybe the Yue maiden) dominated over all the rest as completely and by such a huge degree as KHBD did.

9 Yin was completely underwhelming compared to KHBD considering the reader/viewer was framed to think "Whoever gets this manual will destroy everybody easily". I know some people like to say that 9 Yin was incredible for having great healing and boosting Guo Jing to Great level in a decade, but that is underwhelming for how much it was hyped up (20-30% better than the best fighters isn't quite enough -- KHBD handled it the awesome way ).

Still, we might be able to attribute SPW to just being in a weak dynasty. Zhang Wuji dominated with 9 Yang as hard, if not harder, than DFBB did if you factor in their fighting mentality and experience and we don't really think of 9 Yang as being much better than 9 Yin. Give someone like Miejue full 9 Yang Power and let's see how much havoc she can cause!

[Ken Cheng]

9 Yin was completely underwhelming compared to KHBD considering the reader/viewer was framed to think "Whoever gets this manual will destroy everybody easily". I know some people like to say that 9 Yin was incredible for having great healing and boosting Guo Jing to Great level in a decade, but that is underwhelming for how much it was hyped up (20-30% better than the best fighters isn't quite enough -- KHBD handled it the awesome way ).

Still, we might be able to attribute SPW to just being in a weak dynasty.

I was just going to say...you need to factor that in. 9 Yum Jen Ging appeared in a wulin already dominated by a half-dozen Greats. Dung Fong But Bai and *possibly* Fung Ching Yeung aside, is there anyone in SPW who matches up to the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY Greats class? I don't think Yam Ngor Hang or Shaolin's Chief Abbot come up quite to that level.

[ChronoReverse]

Why not? Both RWX and FZ have performed feats at minimum LoCH level. There's many discussion threads showing how some of the mid-tiered internal energy feats of SPW already matches up to what even Greats in RoCH thought was difficult.


In fact, if we're going to talk about "weak dynasty making a martial art look stronger", HSDS is the _best_ example.

This is a story where a kid (in 1st edition) with 3 half-complete XL18P palms could severely wreck a seasoned pugilist. What exactly was supposed to be actually impressive in HSDS besides 9 Yang? Even the crippled Beggar's Clan leader was supposed to be a powerful figure in wulin before he hurt himself at 15 out of XL18P palms (something a GJ with 3 years of QZ internal energy training had no trouble with). YLQ in RoCH learned the full set and he wasn't even close to Great level (and neither was GJ with all 18 palms for that matter).

XL18P was actually called a "shengong" that's how low the standard in HSDS was!


And then there's 9 Yang failing all the time even with the benefit of fluke accidents (yang-food in 1st edition), the heavenly bag maximizing 9 Yang, QKDNY being perfectly suited for 9 Yang along with taichi training. You could say it reflects on ZMJ but seriously he was given every unfair advantage possible short of XZ-style energy charging.





Seriously, even if you assume that LHC was merely QCJ-level (i.e., not even close to LoCH great-class), QCJ was still able to be dangerous to HYS with just his sleeve attack. The difference in level is large but it's still not as huge a difference as how DFBB stopped a full force sword hack from LHC dead-still using a needle light enough to float on water of all things (and even numbed LHC's arm in the process).

[tape]

I generally just like to think of the powerful-but-will-get-thrashed-by-elites people as Qiu Chuji level and rank the people above them by how easily they dismantle them. People like the 5 Mountain Headmasters minus Zuo are Qiu Chuji level +/- 10-20% to me. As impressive as Ren Woxing was, I can't imagine him dismantling Yue Buqun as easy as Huang Yaoshi dismantled the Quanzhen priests.

In the fight between Zuo and Yue, before Yue started using Pixie (seemingly, at least), they were able to duel for tens/hundreds of stances. Zuo is very close to Ren imo.

Even though Qiu was able to land a sleeve, that was definitely in part to HYS destroying 5 other people in the process who are semi competent at the least. In a real fight, we see that he can rip off Sha Tongtian's arm in one stance, lift up Lingzhi Shangren in one stance, and pretty much stop any lower level person with one pebble. These guys are not much worse than the Quanzhen priests if at all. The domination the Greats had over the next level was insane.

Yue Buqun would have to be significantly stronger than the Quanzhen priests in order for Ren/Zuo to be Greats level, and I don't really see too much evidence for that. I think 7 Yue Buqun's would be a favorite over Ren/Zuo/Fang Zheng, and we know that without the Big Dipper Formation, Huang Yaoshi would pretty much thrash the 7 Priests in 2 minutes.

[tape]

Seriously, even if you assume that LHC was merely QCJ-level (i.e., not even close to LoCH great-class), QCJ was still able to be dangerous to HYS with just his sleeve attack. The difference in level is large but it's still not as huge a difference as how DFBB stopped a full force sword hack from LHC dead-still using a needle light enough to float on water of all things (and even numbed LHC's arm in the process).

I forgot his name but that old Liang guy felt incredible pain in his arm after blocking the first of Guo Jing's palms and dared not receive it anymore. He is supposedly close to Quanzhen priests, and then a couple months later Guo Jing hits Huang Yaoshi with full force and, without moving, Huang Yaoshi just takes it and dislocates his arm from backlash.

I think in the scenario with QCJ, his energy was distracted from launching several blows beforehand, and also reserving and using some to dodge the other 6 Priests attacking him. I can't imagine a QCJ sleeve doing any damage to Huang if there were less than 6 other swords attacking him.

Greats-class is really way too powerful in LOCH.

[ChronoReverse]

I generally just like to think of the powerful-but-will-get-thrashed-by-elites people as Qiu Chuji level and rank the people above them by how easily they dismantle them. People like the 5 Mountain Headmasters minus Zuo are Qiu Chuji level +/- 10-20% to me. As impressive as Ren Woxing was, I can't imagine him dismantling Yue Buqun as easy as Huang Yaoshi dismantled the Quanzhen priests.

The ZLC and YBQ fight was a sham in the first place. They did a half dozen moves as "communication", then put on a show using just their school's sword arts. For about twenty moves:

After trading more than twenty moves, Zuo Lengchan suddenly lifted the long sword in his right hand while his left palm fiercely struck out

At which point the sham really comes out as YBQ tricks ZLC using a concealed poisoned needle.


Besides, we already know LHC can own YBQ with only a few moves and LHC is still below RWX's level. ZLC's fight with RWX wasn't much of an indicator either considering RWX had just finished a _losing_ fight against a stronger FZ. No, YBQ would be crushed pretty bad.

I forgot his name but that old Liang guy felt incredible pain in his arm after blocking the first of Guo Jing's palms and dared not receive it anymore.

Yes but we're not talking about a completed single stance here. We're talking about some kid without the internal energy GJ had using a half-*** XL18P and completely owning an adult martial artist.

He is supposedly close to Quanzhen priests, and then a couple months later Guo Jing hits Huang Yaoshi with full force and, without moving, Huang Yaoshi just takes it and dislocates his arm from backlash.

Wasn't backlash. HYS used a technique here to make GJ's attack slip and thus dislocate his own joint. Still, GJ was still below OYK (he only defeated MCF via a break) level at this point

Greats-class is really way too powerful in LOCH.

They towered above all the rest indeed (see the part where they just grab one of the Jin flunkies by the throat casually). Still, that doesn't really tell us much since a regular martial artist towers over ordinaries to a similar degree too. HYS can casually rip the arm off one of the Jin flukies but then RWX can go ahead and rip the heart right out of what was considered a good fighter in wulin. Doesn't give us a comparison though since we don't know comparative levels of those fighters.

In the end we only have physical feats to compare and LoCH doesn't stand out particularly higher than SPW in that regard.