Xiao Feng & Zhang Sanfeng -vs- Guo Jing & Zhang Wuji

[the.raven]

Maybe not. ZWJ's internal may be lower than YTZ's, however, 9 Yang could provide protection against the Ice Worm Palm. ZWJ's internal is probably higher than Murong Fu. All ZWJ would have to do is use QKDNY and redirect Murong Fu's attacks against YTZ.

are you kidding? ZWJ's internal is lower than YTZ? YTZ just practiced some yoga, wtf.

[ChronoReverse]

YTZ didn't "just practice Yoga". He was involved in one of those freak accidents that involve merging extreme orthodox and extreme unorthodox yielding a power quickly and greater than what is normally achieved.

With that said, he might not even have exceeded XF by much so it's not certain he'd be stronger than ZWJ in internal. However, he was able to tank XF's blows (not in the XZ lol-I-have-hundreds-of-years-of-internal style) so that says a lot about his internal.

[Exodus]

Indeed Z3F mentioned that in HSDS. But what are the chances of Xiao Feng getting to the PEAK of Shaolin... same goes for ZWJ's 9Yang... I doubt they have reached the peak of their respective internal art. However 9 Yang is better when the person actually did not reach the peak of the art, as compared to normal Shaolin internal.

there's no such thing as a reaching a certain PEAK as we can see in DGSD where people can have 2xgreat level inner power.

[CC]

The difference is that ZWJ essentially "bi guan" for 5 years to learn 9 Yang. Whereas Guo Jing learned had to take care of defending China and did not dedicate the kind of time to learning 9 Ying that ZWJ dedicated to 9 Yang.

One thing to note is that when it comes to 'improvement' in kung-fu. JY and his plot devices do not follow what seems to be 'logical real world rules' all the time.

You have people who train hard for years and are still 4th levels scrubs and on the other extreme, you have XF in early DGSD who was shocked to find his own inner strength increase noticeably (when he threw the rod into the rock face) when all he did was run around China with Ah Zhu without training.

[flamer]

there's no such thing as a reaching a certain PEAK as we can see in DGSD where people can have 2xgreat level inner power.

Exactly... but in HSDS, it was said that Shaolin = 9 Yang when PEAKed. Peak is very hard to define. I wonder if anyone can say they PEAKED their respective skill... Like theres is no more ways of improving that skill whatsoever...

[Exodus]

Exactly... but in HSDS, it was said that Shaolin = 9 Yang when PEAKed. Peak is very hard to define. I wonder if anyone can say they PEAKED their respective skill... Like theres is no more ways of improving that skill whatsoever...

it's hard to tell whether ZWJ have better internal than XF or not, but one thing is for sure in a real fight XF would destroy ZWJ

[Dennis Chen]

[Ren Wo Xing]

How's it feel to be all alone, Dennis?

[PJ]

Exactly... but in HSDS, it was said that Shaolin = 9 Yang when PEAKed. Peak is very hard to define. I wonder if anyone can say they PEAKED their respective skill... Like theres is no more ways of improving that skill whatsoever...

Peak is just an adjective that Jin Yong likes to throw around to describe a level that is very high. There's no absolute defined peak, since you can ALWAYS improve more.

In this case, personally I think Jin Yong is using peak to describe having mastered something. For all we know, the peak of Shaolin martial arts is Yijinjing, so he's saying that one who has mastered 9 Yang (Zhang Wuji) would be equal to one who has mastered Yijinjing.

But you cannot say that one who has mastered Yijinjing would automatically be better than one who has mastered Demon Subduing Palm + XL18Z + Dog Beating Stick + Dragon-Capturing Hands (Xiao Feng).

[flamer]

Peak is just an adjective that Jin Yong likes to throw around to describe a level that is very high. There's no absolute defined peak, since you can ALWAYS improve more.

In this case, personally I think Jin Yong is using peak to describe having mastered something. For all we know, the peak of Shaolin martial arts is Yijinjing, so he's saying that one who has mastered 9 Yang (Zhang Wuji) would be equal to one who has mastered Yijinjing.

But you cannot say that one who has mastered Yijinjing would automatically be better than one who has mastered Demon Subduing Palm + XL18Z + Dog Beating Stick + Dragon-Capturing Hands (Xiao Feng).

I agree but we were simply comparing INTERNAL.

[PJ]

I agree but we were simply comparing INTERNAL.

If you want to compare Internal: you still cannot say that one who practiced lesser arts would be weaker than someone who practiced a better art. Because cultivation depends on several factors, including talent, duration of practice, etc. I mean, Yang Guo just ate some SNAKE BLADDERS, and it made him nearly Great-level!

[Exodus]

If you want to compare Internal: you still cannot say that one who practiced lesser arts would be weaker than someone who practiced a better art. Because cultivation depends on several factors, including talent, duration of practice, etc. I mean, Yang Guo just ate some SNAKE BLADDERS, and it made him nearly Great-level!

YG already had very good internal even before he ate the snake bladders so Im not surprised that he was elevated to nearly great level internal.

[HuntingX]

This is quite a silly argument.

First, if XF > GJ in internal energy, then the match is already decided. XF certainly won't lose to someone with equal or worse internal energy than himself.

It is essentially stated in the book that ZSF = ZWJ in internal energy effectiveness, with ZWJ having more raw energy, but ZSF having more pure energy.

However, ZWJ is... not impressive. Also, ZSF taught him most of the actual fighting moves, so it's going to be a wipeout there.

So then the only argument is whether GJ > XF in internal energy. But by all accounts in the text, this is just not true. GJ has a serious lack of LDA and very limited jump distance. Further, it is stated that his martial arts are on the extreme external side (similar to H7G). Thus, his "ceiling" is very low compared to internal arts.

I don't see how someone can argue that XF has limited internal energy when he's blasting people from huge distances away. It just makes very little sense. GJ generally smacks palms with folks, but it's not like he's just ripping through the second tier fighters.

The more interesting question is whether or not XF can take on any 2 of the remaining three fighters by himself (or, in fact, all 3 at once).

Do we have any definitive evidence that GJ, ZWJ, and Z3F are stronger than DQQ, YTZ, and MRF?

I equate YTZ = ZWJ (high internal, useless)
ZSF = DQQ (2 old people)
GJ = MRF (that one makes no sense, last guy left)

[flamer]

If you want to compare Internal: you still cannot say that one who practiced lesser arts would be weaker than someone who practiced a better art. Because cultivation depends on several factors, including talent, duration of practice, etc. I mean, Yang Guo just ate some SNAKE BLADDERS, and it made him nearly Great-level!

Lol try not to bring Yang Guo into this.

But the thing with ZWJ is that we know his internal is so powerful that its around the level of Z3F, who trained his internal for like a hundred years and ultimately talented.

[flamer]

I equate YTZ = ZWJ (high internal, useless)
ZSF = DQQ (2 old people)
GJ = MRF (that one makes no sense, last guy left)

Z3F = Ding Chunqiu?

YTZ = ZWJ?

You can find plenty of ZWJ haters on Spcnet but i think few of them would agree to ZWJ=YTZ.

ZWJ, 9 Yang + QKDNY + Taiji Sword + Taiji Fist etc has arguably one of the best sets of MA in the trilogy.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Yeah, I hate Zhang Wuji, and even I think that's crazy. Assuming their internal are equal, Zhang Wuji still has access to Qiankun Danoyi and Taijiquan. YTZ has nothing but some crappy family martial arts and tiny portions of the Xingsu sect's basic martial arts. Xiao Feng managed to break YTZ's legs in a few stances after Murong Fu was distracted by Duan Yu. There's no way that's going to happen to Zhang Wuji.

[HuntingX]

I was being mildly facetious when I gave those pairings. I guess I'll put sarcasm quotes around stuff like that in the future so people don't get pissed off.

[jackattack]

Zhang San Feng was stated by Jing Yong himself to be the greatest martial artist in his books. i give it to team 1, due to Z3F.

[CC]

wow, digging up old threads again eh?

This is just not a fair fight. You are putting together what JY (in interviews) described as 'Most Undefeatable' and 'Greatest Martial Artist' and pitting them against a team with poor little Wuji in it....

[kdonggyu94]

wow, digging up old threads again eh?

This is just not a fair fight. You are putting together what JY (in interviews) described as 'Most Undefeatable' and 'Greatest Martial Artist' and pitting them against a team with poor little Wuji in it....

ah, if it was yang guo instead of wuji.... they might have a chance.