Would Guo Jing be the sworn brother of Wang Chongyang?

[pannonian]

AFAICS, Xuzhu is deemed to be the sworn brother of Xiao Feng because Duan Yu swore brotherhood with Xiao Feng, and later swore brotherhood with Xuzhu, without Xuzhu and Xiao Feng havng sworn brotherhood together. By the same reasoning, would Guo Jing be the sworn brother of Wang Chongyang via Zhou Botong, and Xuzhu and Duan Yu be the sworn brother of Yelu Hongji via Xiao Feng?

Also, Zhou Botong learnt his martial arts from Wang Chongyang. If so, why would Zhou Botong be the martial brother of Wang Chongyang, rather than his disciple? Similarly with Yin Liting and Muo Shenggu, neither of whom were directly taught by Zhang Sanfeng, but who are ranked in the second generation of Wudang.

[Ren Wo Xing]

AFAICS, Xuzhu is deemed to be the sworn brother of Xiao Feng because Duan Yu swore brotherhood with Xiao Feng, and later swore brotherhood with Xuzhu, without Xuzhu and Xiao Feng havng sworn brotherhood together. By the same reasoning, would Guo Jing be the sworn brother of Wang Chongyang via Zhou Botong, and Xuzhu and Duan Yu be the sworn brother of Yelu Hongji via Xiao Feng?

Also, Zhou Botong learnt his martial arts from Wang Chongyang. If so, why would Zhou Botong be the martial brother of Wang Chongyang, rather than his disciple? Similarly with Yin Liting and Muo Shenggu, neither of whom were directly taught by Zhang Sanfeng, but who are ranked in the second generation of Wudang.

Actually, that was just Duan Yu and Xu Zhu's drunken muddleheadedness. Sworn brotherhood is NOT a transitive property, and when Xiao Feng found out that Duan Yu had included him in their oath ceremony, he was amused at how muddle-headed Duan Yu was, since sworn brotherhood just doesn't work that way. But seeing that Xu Zhu was a fearless person who dared to step forward and claim him as a brother, despite being surrounded on enemies at all side, Xiao Feng accepted him. But it is definitely not standard at all. So no, Guo Jing would not be the sworn brother of Wang Chongyang, and Xu Zhu/Duan Yu would not be sworn brothers of Yelu Hongji. However, although they wouldn't be sworn brothers, generally speaking the relationship between 'groups' of sworn brothers which have members who are part of both groups can be quite close. Sort of like a, "my friend's friend is my friend as well" type of deal; the actual oath is not transitive, but the friendliness of the relationship can be.

Iit is perfectly fine for sworn brothers to exchange martial arts teachings and pointers with each other, but cases like Zhou Botong, where a person learned all his martial arts from another person but does not have a master/pupil relationship, are extremely rare. Mostly, it is because he cried and whined and begged until Wang Chongyang agreed, even though it was really weird and improper.

Yin Liting and Muo Shenggu's cases are much more 'normal'; although they were not primarily taught directly by Zhang Sanfeng, Zhang Sanfeng had accepted them as his personal disciples, which is why they were on the 'same level' as the other five.

[Extremer88]

You can't be considered as friends, let alone brothers if you haven't seen, spoke, and stand within 10 metres to the other guy before.

Xiao Feng has met Xuzhu, talked with him, accepted him as a brother and even fought alongside him (in adversity). So, Xiao Feng, Xuzhu & Duan Yu easily = brothers.

In the case of Yelu Hongji with Xuzhu / Duan Yu, they shouldn't be considered as brothers. The least they can be though, is as acquaintance.

[the.raven]

but sworn brothers have to die on same day right?


so if yelu hongqi dies, xiao feng dies, and then duan yu dies, and then xuzhu dies, lmao.

[flamer]

You will notice that it is not often that sworn brothers die on the same day.

Liu Bei, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei died years apart. Xuzhu, Duan Yu lived on etc.

[the.raven]

You will notice that it is not often that sworn brothers die on the same day.

Liu Bei, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei died years apart. Xuzhu, Duan Yu lived on etc.

they broke their oaths then o_0

[CC]

they broke their oaths then o_0

Yup. It can be argued that way.

Of course the counter-argument that 'swearing to die on the same day' means fighting for your brother's cause/revenge even if it means death.

So for Liu Bei's case, he fought Wu for revenge even against the advice of all his advisors.

For DY/XZ's case, there was nothing to revenge for, since that would be against XF's wish.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Yup. It can be argued that way.

Of course the counter-argument that 'swearing to die on the same day' means fighting for your brother's cause/revenge even if it means death.

So for Liu Bei's case, he fought Wu for revenge even against the advice of all his advisors.

For DY/XZ's case, there was nothing to revenge for, since that would be against XF's wish.

Well, actually, if you look at the original Chinese, my interpretation of it isn't exactly that they are swearing to die on the same day:

"不求同年同月同日生, 但求同年同月同日死."

My interpretation/translation of that is closer to,

"We ask not [of Heaven] for us to have been born together in the same year, the same month, on the same day, but only that we die together, on the same day of the same month of the same year."

In essence, they aren't swearing to die together; they are asking Heaven to arrange for their deaths to be on the same day, an expression of deep bonds as opposed to a suicide pact. If shit happens and one of them dies before the rest, then it means Heaven was not willing to let that happen.