How did Feng Qingyang learn Dugu Sword?

[S Beaver]

I imagine the degeracy effect of YG's little brood wouldn't be as pronounced, considering the Yellow Dressed Lady seemed to know a good amount of 9 Yin. Since they were isolated, there was less incentive from them to withhold their knowledge from their progeny.

It's entirely possible that the generations refined the DG9J sword art.

But then, having Feng Qingyang come in contact with someone of the Yang clan is probably just as likely as him stumbling upon another cache of DGQB's sword knowledge.

it's not about degeneracy within the generation but rather MASSIVE improvements, considering DG9J is quite a fancy turn from what is left on dugu's sword tombs. otherwise, LHC's sword skills would not be considered superior to YG's sword skills...

[ChanceEncounter]

That's what the degeneracy theory is.

People are constantly enhancing and refining what they have. This is standard progress.

However, with the destruction of certain lineages, and certain masters not transferring all their skills, this creates a destructive effect.

The degeneracy pattern is observed when the destructive effect > refinement effect. If it was the opposite, the martial arts would improve. Thus, since I'm theorizing that -- at least within the Yang clan -- the motivators for destruction (death from battle, withholding of information) seem greatly minimized, it's not a stretch to argue that the rate of refinement could, in fact, overtake the degeneracy.

[S Beaver]

That's what the degeneracy theory is.

People are constantly enhancing and refining what they have. This is standard progress.

However, with the destruction of certain lineages, and certain masters not transferring all their skills, this creates a destructive effect.

The degeneracy pattern is observed when the destructive effect > refinement effect. If it was the opposite, the martial arts would improve. Thus, since I'm theorizing that -- at least within the Yang clan -- the motivators for destruction (death from battle, withholding of information) seem greatly minimized, it's not a stretch to argue that the rate of refinement could, in fact, overtake the degeneracy.

but the rate of refinement would be MASSIVE in this case. in other words, the refinement alone calls for ingeniousness that it may not even need YG's experience. If someone can come up with Dugu 9 Sword based simply on the ideas that Yang Guo had about Dugu's swords, then this person's sheer ingenuity might as well rival that of Dugu's own ingenious. In that case, the likihood of Yang Guo's descendents creating such is a skill might as well be the same as random person A trampling upon Dugu's sword tombs some time down the line. Don't forget, one doesn't NEED to know or have practiced the iron sword/wooden sword stage to learn Dugu 9 swords.

[Wellesley]

Jin Yong made many changes in the 3rd edition that changed the story a lot, like the romantic changes in HSDS for example. Maybe a petition to explain how Feng Qinyang learned DG9J would have convinced JY to expand on this mystery.

It's a minor change that does not have any major impact on the SPW storyline, and JY does not have to tell too much about DGQB either.

Such a small change would satisfy the fans while preserving JY's intention of keeping the character DGQB shrouded in mystery.

Some characters, such as Sweeper monk, DGQB, the eunuch who invented sunflower manual are meant to be mysterious, but explaining on how FQY found DG9J would be akin to explaining how RWX created his energy absorbing skill, fun and harmless to the balance of the JY universe as a whole.

[PJ]

Jin Yong made many changes in the 3rd edition that changed the story a lot, like the romantic changes in HSDS for example. Maybe a petition to explain how Feng Qinyang learned DG9J would have convinced JY to expand on this mystery.

No thanks. After the literary fiasco that was the explanation of the origin of 9 Yang Shen Gong (which defies logic in its inconsistent presentation of Wang Chongyang), I don't want any more demystifications from Jin Yong

[ChronoReverse]

Yeah, I was happier with 9 Yang being written by Damo than some random monk who didn't actually practice martial arts writing it up after reading 9 Yin quickly (WTF).

[Ken Cheng]

By practicing.

ARTS

[Wellesley]

No thanks. After the literary fiasco that was the explanation of the origin of 9 Yang Shen Gong (which defies logic in its inconsistent presentation of Wang Chongyang), I don't want any more demystifications from Jin Yong

Ah, good point. I totally forgot about that outrageous addition. Even Xu Zhu and Xiao Feng revising and improving Dragon Subduing Palms was a bit too much for a purist like me.

But I liked the 2nd edition story of RWX, who only had tiny bits of Beiming Shengong and several larger bits of Huagong Daifa and merged them into a martial art that is a double edged sword.

For DG9J, I was thinking of something simple, like Dugu QiuBai finding a worthy disciple at the ripe old age of 70, passing everything orally to him, then from generation to generation it was passed down to FQY. Of course such a story does not make sense because among the DG9J users before FQY, at least would have made a mark in the martial realm.

So what if Dugu wrote everything down in a book Miyamoto Musashi style, then some sexy tomb raider stole it, and then it was back into the hands of a notable recluse a few generations before FQY.

Anything that sheds some light on how FQY learned DG9J, without unbalancing the JY universe is fine. No re-inventing the wheel like in the 9 Yang story, just something to connect the dots.

[pannonian]

No thanks. After the literary fiasco that was the explanation of the origin of 9 Yang Shen Gong (which defies logic in its inconsistent presentation of Wang Chongyang), I don't want any more demystifications from Jin Yong

Would anyone care to compose a 4th edition explanation of DG9J wrt ROCH, in the style of 3rd edition WCY?

Perhaps YG passed the heavy sword and the sword tomb's writings to GJ, and HYS created DG9J from these ideas. While on his way back to Peach Blossom island, HYS lost a drinking contest with a passer by, and had to give away his DG9J manual.

[Ken Cheng]

I'm thinking that maybe Dook Goo Kau Bai might not necessarily have been an individual, as we've always thought, but a franchise. Perhaps it was a secret order of swordsmen who operated in the shadows under the "Dook Goo Kau Bai" franchise title. Thus, the Dook Goo Kau Bai whose Divine Condor led Yeung Gor to the Tomb of Swords was an associate of, but not the same individual as the Dook Goo Kau Bai who provided the Dook Goo 9 Swords to the SPW swordsmen.

[Dennis Chen]

I think SPW exists in a parallel wuxia universe. In this universe, Zhang Sanfeng was born in 960 A.D. DGQB created DG9J instead of the HIS and was able to pass on his swordskills through various individuals.

[Ken Cheng]

I think SPW exists in a parallel wuxia universe. In this universe, Zhang Sanfeng was born in 960 A.D. DGQB created DG9J instead of the HIS and was able to pass on his swordskills.

You know, I've always sort of bought this myself. SPW doesn't fit in with the rest of the Jin Yong universe that well. It seems to occur in a universe where DGSD happened and DOMD *would* happen, but the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY didn't happen (at least not in the way we know the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY).

[PJ]

You know, I've always sort of bought this myself. SPW doesn't fit in with the rest of the Jin Yong universe that well. It seems to occur in a universe where DGSD happened and DOMD *would* happen, but the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY didn't happen (at least not in the way we know the CONDOR HEROES TRILOGY).

Yes, I think that is a good way to look at SPW, since it was written in between DGSD and DOMD.

And hence why SPW makes references to DGSD, and DOMD makes references to SPW, but they don't make references to the Condor Trilogy (aside from Zhang Sanfeng, which is more of a historic figure).

[Ken Cheng]

Yes, I think that is a good way to look at SPW, since it was written in between DGSD and DOMD.

And hence why SPW makes references to DGSD, and DOMD makes references to SPW, but they don't make references to the Condor Trilogy (aside from Zhang Sanfeng, which is more of a historic figure).

DOMD made an oblique reference to West Poison Au Yeung Fung in describing the origins of the corpse-dissolving acid that Wai Siu Bo carried around.

[PJ]

DOMD made an oblique reference to West Poison Au Yeung Fung in describing the origins of the corpse-dissolving acid that Wai Siu Bo carried around.

Hmm I think you're right. It also made numerous references to Crimson Sword, another early era novel, but that is to be expected

[Ken Cheng]

There are at least two Jin Yong continuity timelines, I think. Let's call them Earth-1 and Earth-2 (an homage for you DC Comics fans).

On Earth-1, this happened:

1. DGSD

2. LOCH

3. ROCH

4. HSDS

5. DOMD

On Earth-2, however, something like this happened:

1. DGSD

2. SPW

3. DOMD

[ChanceEncounter]

LDJ can't happen without some bits of the Condor Trilogy. So in no circumstance can "Earth-2" contain LDJ without some bits of L/ROCH/HSDS. Thus Earth-2 cannot exist.

XKX is just as out there as XAJH, but neither of them are so WTF that they can't belong in the same universe. There are still possible explanations and avenues for exporation as for why DG9J ended up in FQY's hands.

but the rate of refinement would be MASSIVE in this case. in other words, the refinement alone calls for ingeniousness that it may not even need YG's experience. If someone can come up with Dugu 9 Sword based simply on the ideas that Yang Guo had about Dugu's swords, then this person's sheer ingenuity might as well rival that of Dugu's own ingenious. In that case, the likihood of Yang Guo's descendents creating such is a skill might as well be the same as random person A trampling upon Dugu's sword tombs some time down the line. Don't forget, one doesn't NEED to know or have practiced the iron sword/wooden sword stage to learn Dugu 9 swords.

We don't know how 'massive' the changes have to be. We do know that there are likely several centuries to make these massive refinements.

It is "possible" that FQY stumbled across another one of DGQB's caves, but just how many were there? An intermediary for all the verses should probably be put in.

[PJ]

Oh well, at least it's not as confusing as trying to make sense of Gu Long's "earth". All (or, a substantial majority) of his 40+ stories might have happened within 200 years (just a guess).

[ChanceEncounter]

40+ stories?

Give the man his due. He was one hell of a volume writer.

[CC]

WHat Earth-1, Earth-2? This is too confusing.


I think an easier answer is that when Yan 13 practiced his Stop-the-Universe (tm) sword, he created a rift in time-space. Appeared on top of FCY's breakfast and later taught him 9 out of his 13/15 swords as compensation for stepping on FCY's steamed mantou.