confusing part of Roch

[muidi]

There is a part in ROCH where YG tried to heal the injuries of XLN using the ice bed.
This part is confusing. First XLN and YG read the private letters of WCY and LCY. WCY said that the ice bed can cure all injuries and is therefore very helpful for LCY. This implied that LCY was injured. Later in the discussion between XLN and YG, they suddenly said the master of XLN was injured. The person who injured her was OYF.
So who was exactly injured? LCY or XLN's master or both? It must be both. XLN's master was injured by OYF, but LCY was injured by someone unnamed. Beside WCY (and maybe Dugu) who is able to do this?
And why did OYF go to the tomb and want to kill XLNs master? Was he afraid that she will join the 2nd Mount Hua tournament?

Hope someone can enlighten me.

[kyss of the sword]

i will end your confusion. LCY had died before the first huashan tournament. she taugh all her skills to her maid who was the teacher of XLN and LMC. none of the experts besides WCY, ZBT and HYS knew of LCY and her skills. neither HQG or yideng could recognise their skills. XLN's teacher died after the 2nd huashan tournament after OYF lost his mind. LMC stole the five poisons manual from OYF in a chance meeting and she fled to the tomb when he chased her. XLN's teacher helped out LMC and fought with OYF and got injured. OYF fled after he encounter the traps in the tomb. granny sun did not see the fight and asked XLN's teacher who had injured her, since there were few who could, she assumed it was OYF. LCY wasn't injured by other but fell ill due to practising her skills wrongly. LCY was trying to create a unique and new school of martial arts and went wrong during the training of it and fell ill twice. during this two illness, WCY suppressed her in skills. later she created a set of training in use of the ice bed. ancient tomb skills were partly unordotox.

[muidi]

now it is much clearer.
I didn't know that LMC stole the five poison manual from OYF. I thought she developed this skill by herself.
thanks for the answer.

[darkshineknight]

now it is much clearer.
I didn't know that LMC stole the five poison manual from OYF. I thought she developed this skill by herself.
thanks for the answer.

i never knew the 5 poisen manual was from OYF either... could anyone explain ? i've read ROCH at least 15 times already (the translation anyhow :P ) and i've knew that. is it from LOCH (only ever watched an adaption of this one)?

[Ken Cheng]

i never knew the 5 poisen manual was from OYF either... could anyone explain ? i've read ROCH at least 15 times already (the translation anyhow :P ) and i've knew that. is it from LOCH (only ever watched an adaption of this one)?

No. I can't tell you exactly where it was mentioned, but it was definitely in ROCH. The incident itself actually happened during that thirteen year period between the end of LOCH and the beginning of ROCH. A few years after West Poison Au Yeung Fung lost his sanity at Mt. Hua, Lee Mok Sau came upon him and somehow managed to get her hands on his Five Poisons Manual. This became the basis of all her poison-based attack methods (which makes sense, as the Ancient Tomb Sect really didn't do poisons).

[pannonian]

No. I can't tell you exactly where it was mentioned, but it was definitely in ROCH. The incident itself actually happened during that thirteen year period between the end of LOCH and the beginning of ROCH. A few years after West Poison Au Yeung Fung lost his sanity at Mt. Hua, Lee Mok Sau came upon him and somehow managed to get her hands on his Five Poisons Manual. This became the basis of all her poison-based attack methods (which makes sense, as the Ancient Tomb Sect really didn't do poisons).

The soul-freezing needles were an Ancient Tomb speciality, as were the Jade Bee needles. I still don't understand though why XLN's master passed on the soul-freezing needles to LMC, and the Jade Bee needles to XLN, as the former were much deadlier.

[Doc Kwok]

The soul-freezing needles were an Ancient Tomb speciality, as were the Jade Bee needles. I still don't understand though why XLN's master passed on the soul-freezing needles to LMC, and the Jade Bee needles to XLN, as the former were much deadlier.

The Jade-Bee needles were as thin as hairs, and so were much harder to detect and avoid. They were also much crueller - whereas the soul-freezing needles killed fairly quickly and painlessly, victims of the jade-bee needles suffer a prolonged, tortured death as they literally itched to death over days.

XLN was the chosen successor to the ancient tomb sect, so she probably knew how to make and use them, but simply didn't bother. She definitely kept the antidote with her.

[Ken Cheng]

The Jade-Bee needles were as thin as hairs, and so were much harder to detect and avoid. They were also much crueller - whereas the soul-freezing needles killed fairly quickly and painlessly, victims of the jade-bee needles suffer a prolonged, tortured death as they literally itched to death over days.

Given the temperaments of their respective users, that goes against expectations.

I'm not the biggest Lam Chiu Ying fan, but I thought she was better than resorting to vicious poisons. Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung would *not* have approved.

[Doc Kwok]

Given the temperaments of their respective users, that goes against expectations.

I think the Jade-bee needles were used more for their effectiveness in combat (in terms of the surprise factor), rather than for the aftereffect. Anyway, as I recall, no-one has actually died from the Jade-bee needles in the novel, whereas the ice-soul needles were infamous for killing. If you were actually intending to kill the target with the Jade-bee needles, then yes, it would be much crueller, but because it is so prolonged, it also gives more time for the antidote to be administered.

[Doc Kwok]

I'm not the biggest Lam Chiu Ying fan, but I thought she was better than resorting to vicious poisons. Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung would *not* have approved.

She used them very infrequently, since she thought they were too cruel as well (and her other skills were more than enough anyway).

Although the use of poisoned weapons seems to be frowned upon by the orthodox sects, they don't seem to be condemned outright. The obvious example is the head of the 7 freaks, who was famous for his poisoned projectiles - I don't recall anyone calling him for it. The beggars in DGSD also used poisonous snakes as weapons. Of course, neither of them are exactly 'orthodox'.

[Ken Cheng]

The obvious example is the head of the 7 freaks, who was famous for his poisoned projectiles - I don't recall anyone calling him for it.

*I've* always had a problem with it. I've always wondered how Ohr Jen Ngok could be regarded as a hero and so revered by his famously righteous student Gwok Jing when his best weapon was poison-based.

[Doc Kwok]

XLN's teacher died after the 2nd huashan tournament after OYF lost his mind. LMC stole the five poisons manual from OYF in a chance meeting and she fled to the tomb when he chased her. XLN's teacher helped out LMC and fought with OYF and got injured. OYF fled after he encounter the traps in the tomb. granny sun did not see the fight and asked XLN's teacher who had injured her, since there were few who could, she assumed it was OYF. LCY wasn't injured by other but fell ill due to practising her skills wrongly. LCY was trying to create a unique and new school of martial arts and went wrong during the training of it and fell ill twice. during this two illness, WCY suppressed her in skills. later she created a set of training in use of the ice bed. ancient tomb skills were partly unordotox.

There is a quite a bit of speculation in here mixed in with known facts.

It was never stated that the poison manual came from OYF, only that LMC had somehow upset him. In the first edition of the novel, OYF actually captured LMC for a time, and her teacher had to leave the tomb to rescue her. During her capture, she was influenced by him and greatly changed in personality. OYF was also responsible for teaching her the five-poison palm (whereas in later editions it was self-invented). In any case, the manual contained the formula for the poison used on the palms, not the palm technique itself.

It was never stated why LCY fell ill twice - only that she was depressed at the time.

LCY was injured at one point in time - by an opponent who used a yin-type martial art (so she could heal herself with the ice-bed without having to reverse all her channels).

[Doc Kwok]

I'm not the biggest Lam Chiu Ying fan, but I thought she was better than resorting to vicious poisons. Central Divinity Wong Chung Yeung would *not* have approved.

Hmmm... looking at the first edition, it seems that originally, it was LCY's maid/disciple (i.e. LMC and XLN's teacher) who created the needles specifically in order to counter OYF, and not LCY herself. Apparently, the maid's martial arts were actually far superior to OYF's , with the sole exception of projectile weapons, and so she did not do too well during their first encounter when she was ambushed. With the aid of her new weapons, she actually defeated OYF later on and rescued LMC, but sustained heavy injuries in the process that lingered for years before killing her.

[muidi]

Hmmm... looking at the first edition, it seems that originally, it was LCY's maid/disciple (i.e. LMC and XLN's teacher) who created the needles specifically in order to counter OYF, and not LCY herself. Apparently, the maid's martial arts were actually far superior to OYF's , with the sole exception of projectile weapons, and so she did not do too well during their first encounter when she was ambushed. With the aid of her new weapons, she actually defeated OYF later on and rescued LMC, but sustained heavy injuries in the process that lingered for years before killing her.

Hmm, these parts were all in the first edition? Why did Jin Yong erased all these background stories in later editions?
Yes, it was never stated in the novel that the five poison manual came from OYF, but it makes sense to connect it with OYF. The palms techniques were invented by LMC based on the poison knowledge of OYF. Otherwise it would be strange why OYF never used these palms in Loch.
It also explains why OYF could easily find a method to teach young YG how to neutralize it.

I am wondering who was able to injure LCY with yin martial art.
This makes room for a lot of speculations.

[pannonian]

Hmm, these parts were all in the first edition? Why did Jin Yong erased all these background stories in later editions?
Yes, it was never stated in the novel that the five poison manual came from OYF, but it makes sense to connect it with OYF. The palms techniques were invented by LMC based on the poison knowledge of OYF. Otherwise it would be strange why OYF never used these palms in Loch.
It also explains why OYF could easily find a method to teach young YG how to neutralize it.

I am wondering who was able to injure LCY with yin martial art.
This makes room for a lot of speculations.

Yang Guo was poisoned by a soul-freezing needle, which is an Ancient Tomb art, not Ouyang Feng's. Ouyang Feng probably knew how to cure it because he was a master of poison, not because it was derived from his arts.

[darkshineknight]

Personally, I've always though LMC invented the WDSZ (wu du shen zhang)

We definitely know that Soul Freezing was from Ancient tomb, as LCY's maid used it to maim the person who attacked the tomb (who we can only PRESUME is OYF)

We know that LMC caused the fight between the mysterious person and LCY (assuming OYF)

We know that LMC was kicked out because she refused to swear not going away from tomb (hence she was not kicked out for the trouble caused with the mysterious stranger, who we think is OYF)

WDSZ was a unique skill belonging to LMC, no one else has ever used it, hence I made the assumption that she was the one who created it. OYF's poison did not have the 3 pedal like shape on the victims hands after they were infected (assuming that its the poison that leaves this red-ish mark). Hence my conclusion that WDSZ is not OYF's technique (its possible that parts of it is from his skills tho).

In the novel, I don't think LMC used any other poison other than the two mentioned...

Hence... she really didnt steal that much from OYF's skills did she... we know she created her own flywhisk techniques which r formidable, so palm techniques can also be created by her. The palm techniques might have even been from Tomb sect's palm techniques, only infused with poison, who knows... we can only speculate.

The book never Stated that LCY's maid created the 2 needle poison and the skills for throwing them for the mysterious stranger who attacked the tomb. From the readings, it is apparent that the needles and its throwing skills were previously known to her... only that she didnt like using them against people. She was "forced" to use the soul freezing needles (read where XLN and YG was beseiged by LMC and HLB for this information)

[Doc Kwok]

Personally, I've always though LMC invented the WDSZ (wu du shen zhang)

This is explicitly stated in the 2nd and 3rd editions. In the first edition, she was definitely taught by OYF.

We definitely know that Soul Freezing was from Ancient tomb, as LCY's maid used it to maim the person who attacked the tomb (who we can only PRESUME is OYF)

She used gold needles, and it was the overwhelming numbness/itching that drove OYF off, hence it was the jade-bee needles, not the soul-freezing needles.

We know that LMC was kicked out because she refused to swear not going away from tomb (hence she was not kicked out for the trouble caused with the mysterious stranger, who we think is OYF)

I don't think anyone ever said that she was. However, the timelines are different between first edition and 2nd/3rd editions. In the first edition, the event seem to have occurred before OYF went crazy (hence the teacher's injuries lingering for years), while in later editions, the timing is left more ambiguous.

The book never Stated that LCY's maid created the 2 needle poison and the skills for throwing them for the mysterious stranger who attacked the tomb. From the readings, it is apparent that the needles and its throwing skills were previously known to her... only that she didnt like using them against people. She was "forced" to use the soul freezing needles (read where XLN and YG was beseiged by LMC and HLB for this information)

The maid inventing the needles and LMC learning the palms from OYF are explicitly stated in the first edition, prior to Jinyong's first round of revisions in the 70s. The copies of Jinyong's works currently in circulation are overwhelmingly second and third editions, which often have significant changes from the versions printed in Ming Bao in the 50s/60s.

[muidi]

I still dont get it why why Jin yong deleted all these parts in later editions. Does anyone have a idea?

[sniffles]

WDSZ was a unique skill belonging to LMC, no one else has ever used it, hence I made the assumption that she was the one who created it. OYF's poison did not have the 3 pedal like shape on the victims hands after they were infected (assuming that its the poison that leaves this red-ish mark). Hence my conclusion that WDSZ is not OYF's technique (its possible that parts of it is from his skills tho).

What petal-shaped marks? Is this another edition change? I've only read the fan translation of ROCH, but I don't recall any mention of this.

I still dont get it why why Jin yong deleted all these parts in later editions. Does anyone have a idea?

Presumably JY wasn't happy with the way those parts of the story worked in the original version.

[Ken Cheng]

Presumably JY wasn't happy with the way those parts of the story worked in the original version.

Alot of stuff (particularly in LOCH) had to be retconned specifically to line up with DGSD.