What is the most profound, advanced martial art in DGSD?

[ChronoReverse]

Aiyah, Jin Yong intended 6MSG to be the ultimate qi art! It's practically the sole fictional representative of Qigong (unlike the hard external techniques mixed with Qi like HL18P).

Where does it say that? JMZ claimed that MRB said that. But MRB later said the very opposite AND proved it with action!

Hey you said it, its Duan Yu, and the inexperienced Duan Yu who didn't get to his peak in DGSD yet. Xiao Feng's XL18Z would pwn JMZ.

At that moment, DY was able to completely unleash 6MSJ and even transcend the techniques of 6MSJ displaying his usual moments of random brilliance. XF himself was worried about this form of DY and you go ahead and say XF would blow away the JMZ who was able to stand up to it? Do you even have any basis for this?

[flamer]

At that moment, DY was able to completely unleash 6MSJ and even transcend the techniques of 6MSJ displaying his usual moments of random brilliance. XF himself was worried about this form of DY and you go ahead and say XF would blow away the JMZ who was able to stand up to it? Do you even have any basis for this?

By that moment, do you mean DY as of Celestial Dragon Temple? Are you sure thats the same DY XF feared? Because DY made MAJOR advances.

[ChronoReverse]

So what did he improve?

His firing rate? It was already firing from all his fingers so it's not going to get much quicker.

His wonderful technique? 6MSJ's technique was great but not unbreakable. In the end it was DY's lucky random attacks that ended up even better.

Then his greater internal energy? Against JMZ it was already boundless and seemingly becoming greater and greater. Which JMZ matched anyway. But it was greater later you say? XF ALSO matched that and even forced DY back so it's not like DY was going to crush XF with just greater internal energy either.



DY may have improved later but you'll have to explain what made a _huge_ difference as you say.

[Ren Wo Xing]

His wonderful technique? 6MSJ's technique was great but not unbreakable. In the end it was DY's lucky random attacks that ended up even better.

I think you're taking this a bit out of context; the techniques of each sword as used by Emperor Baoding were not only learned in a day or two, but also originally meant to be used in conjunction with the five other swords by one person. 6MSJ, as it was 'supposed to be used', was never really shown in the novel at all.

Btw, I agree with you in general that 6MSJ is a bit overhyped, but just wanted to correct a few inaccuracies.

[ChronoReverse]

Well here's the thing. Was 6MSJ really weakened by 6 people using it instead of 1?

We know DY was efficient with 6MSJ, but he also had internal far in excess of all 6 monks combined.

Was there actually phrasing in DGSD that states that 6MSJ performed by a single user is better than with 6 people using it? I thought it was more than it was kinda sad that the Dragon Temple monks needed to have six people to deal with JMZ because each could only master 1/6 of 6MSJ.


I've extrapolated a bit without explanation but perhaps it needs to be explored more.

[CFT]

Was there actually phrasing in DGSD that states that 6MSJ performed by a single user is better than with 6 people using it? I thought it was more than it was kinda sad that the Dragon Temple monks needed to have six people to deal with JMZ because each could only master 1/6 of 6MSJ.

I think it was intimated (at least) that one single user employing all 6 swords would be more powerful than 6 separate users. 6 users need to coordinate their attacks and avoid injuring each other, whereas 1 single user can use whatever sword or variation as desired.

[flamer]

So what did he improve?

His firing rate? It was already firing from all his fingers so it's not going to get much quicker.

His wonderful technique? 6MSJ's technique was great but not unbreakable. In the end it was DY's lucky random attacks that ended up even better.

Then his greater internal energy? Against JMZ it was already boundless and seemingly becoming greater and greater. Which JMZ matched anyway. But it was greater later you say? XF ALSO matched that and even forced DY back so it's not like DY was going to crush XF with just greater internal energy either.

DY may have improved later but you'll have to explain what made a _huge_ difference as you say.

Basically DY then was not the inexperienced chap at the beginning of the novel and had greater control of his internal and 6MSJ. eg his wine competition with XF and race shows his much better control of internal energy. Monks and relatives at Dali would also have given pointers regarding YYZ and 6MSJ.

I still don't quite see how his attacks on JMZ came out surprisingly advantageous. Its just the 6MSJ.

I think DY probably did not have full mastery of 6MSJ, even at the end of it, so the skill itself merits more than what was shown in DGSD.

Regarding XF vs DY/XZ, I expressed my views before and think it must be some sort of plot device. Mess things up if DY/XZ destroyed XF there as they have about 5 times as much internal as XF.

[ChronoReverse]

Think, think, think and hinted. That's not good enough. Stuff like "avoid hitting each other" is not really much of an argument when the technique only has a couple meters of range at best especially when the chi is wielded like a SWORD not a BULLET from a gun.


Give me real examples of why 6MSJ should be so awesome. It's power, striking ability, range and technique. Even combined it was not demonstrably ultimate.

So what's the point? You end up with a technique that has insanely high requirements to use and even when you finally get the said requirements (which would already make you one of the strongest) the skill doesn't elevate one much compared to other great level martial arts (which, incidentally, can be used before you acquire the insanely high requirement for 6MSJ).

Simply put, 6MSJ is a plot device like DG9J except it's even worse because it doesn't even do WTFPWNed except against MRF (yay).

I think it was intimated (at least) that one single user employing all 6 swords would be more powerful than 6 separate users. 6 users need to coordinate their attacks and avoid injuring each other, whereas 1 single user can use whatever sword or variation as desired.

Most likely true in terms of JY's intention regardless of whether is makes physical sense =)

[flamer]

6MSJ was made for a single person to use. Its like 6 different people uses 3 palms each of the XL18Z.

6MSJ is powerful in its raw power (internal required to learn this skill), lack of visible sword, exquisite stances. All which far surpasses other skills. JMZ being able to block DY's attacks, seriously, DY then knows nothing about martial arts.

[ChronoReverse]

6MSJ is powerful in its raw power (internal required to learn this skill)

The fact it takes great internal to use is not direct proof the skill is powerful.

lack of visible sword

Not only is this true of all LDA's, the limit of 6MSJ is 10 blades at once. JMZ fired 12 invisible saber blades at once.

exquisite stances.

As I said over and over, they were exquisite but ultimately not beyond other top grade martial arts. JMZ himself commented that the formation was like that.

Now there could be synergistic effects (let's ignore the physical problems with this). This is the only silver lining in 6MSJ's cloud.

Of course, it brings into question a certain someone's assertion that 6MSJ is a premiere qigong technique if the power of 6MSJ ultimately lies in its techniques.

[Ghaleon]

So what's the point? You end up with a technique that has insanely high requirements to use and even when you finally get the said requirements (which would already make you one of the strongest) the skill doesn't elevate one much compared to other great level martial arts (which, incidentally, can be used before you acquire the insanely high requirement for 6MSJ).

Simply put, 6MSJ is a plot device like DG9J except it's even worse because it doesn't even do WTFPWNed except against MRF (yay).

Well of course it is a plot device. JY intended it to be the ultimate chi art. It's a Qigong art as opposed to an internal neija art with hard external techniques like HL18P. So once you master it, it's like wielding a Jedi light sabre with a simple movement of the fingers. The advantage lies in its potential. It's a direct energy transfer through the fingers with minimal physical body stances and movement. Think of Emperor Palpatine with his lighting bolts.

[ChronoReverse]

Making no sense at all since it's the techniques that make it marvelous in the end. None of its other attributes were unmatched in combination after all.

[Ghaleon]

Making no sense at all since it's the techniques that make it marvelous after all. None of its other attributes were unmatched in combination after all.

It's also the ease of use, power and control. Dude, you're manipulating chi flows in your body through certain channels. That's total control. You can't get more "Qigong" than that.

[ChronoReverse]

It's also the ease of use, power and control. Dude, you're manipulating chi flows in your body through certain channels. That's total control. You can't get more "Qigong" than that.

Actually, I'm going to have to call you out on that one to provide proof.


Real-life theories aside, where did JY or a character in DGSD state that is a property of 6MSJ? We can't go by real-life qigong theories since if we take that then we have to consider real-life physical ramifications of 6MSJ (which isn't pretty).

[CFT]

As I said over and over, they were exquisite but ultimately not beyond other top grade martial arts. JMZ himself commented that the formation was like that.

The formation of 6 people yes, not the full technique executed by one person.

click to show/hide spoilers

Jiumozhi said, “What the venerable Mr. Murong admired was the sword techniques of the ‘Divine Sword of the Six Meridians’, not the sword formation. This sword formation of the Heavenly Dragon Temple really is very powerful, but if we were to compare it with Shaolin’s ‘Arhat Sword Formation’ or Kunlun sect’s ‘Chaos Sword Formation’, it can only be said to be on the same level, and cannot be said to be the most unparalleled sword technique in the world.” By describing it as a ‘Sword Formation’ instead of as a ‘Sword Technique’, he was pointing out the fact that all six of them fought in unison with a pre-planned formation, rather than one of them using the ‘Divine Sword of the Six Meridians’ by himself, as he, Jiumozhi, had done with his ‘Blazing Flame Sabre’.

[flamer]

The fact it takes great internal to use is not direct proof the skill is powerful.



Not only is this true of all LDA's, the limit of 6MSJ is 10 blades at once. JMZ fired 12 invisible saber blades at once.



As I said over and over, they were exquisite but ultimately not beyond other top grade martial arts. JMZ himself commented that the formation was like that.

Now there could be synergistic effects (let's ignore the physical problems with this). This is the only silver lining in 6MSJ's cloud.

Of course, it brings into question a certain someone's assertion that 6MSJ is a premiere qigong technique if the power of 6MSJ ultimately lies in its techniques.

In Jinyong, great internal perquisite often signals a powerful skill. But ignoring that, given the many great descriptions of the skill, its prowess cannot be underestimated, especially XF's comment. As I said before, JMZ blocking the attacks is no big deal due to the completely inexperienced Duan Yu.

As you said, JMZ commented on the FORMATION and made clear distinctions between the actual 6MSJ and the formation.

[ChronoReverse]

And again you haven't brought anything to prove my assertion otherwise.

My evidence is circumstantial as you say correctly, but that's still more than no evidence.

[Ghaleon]

Actually, I'm going to have to call you out on that one to provide proof.


Real-life theories aside, where did JY or a character in DGSD state that is a property of 6MSJ? We can't go by real-life qigong theories since if we take that then we have to consider real-life physical ramifications of 6MSJ (which isn't pretty).

I'm not just going by real-life qigong theories. I'm just going by what is common knowledge in wuxia and what is described in the novel with regards to 6MSG. The name of 6MSG itself tells you it is a Qi-art based on utilizing the 6 meridians to the finger.

Plus you gotta remember that Jin Yong studied lot of chinese philosophy, martial arts, and internal neija training to provide the basic framework for his fights. Without the neija part, then JY's novels would just be a standard Bruce Lee or Hua Yuan Jia type novel. So obviously chinese philosophy and neija aspects are very important - they are the most basic framework from which JY's fictionalized martial arts are based on.

[CC]

It is interesting to note that 6MSJ being the 'best skill' and 'ultimate sword qi' etc etc was only in the supposed words of MRB and XF only noted that 'it was a wondrous skill and he would face difficulty if placed in MRF's position'. Not one time was it narrated as #1.

Yet the skill which was narrated as 'boundless' and 'with unlimited potential and power' - Prajna Palm, gets rated by you guys as sub-standard compared to 6MSJ and XL18Z.

And by that same point, the times where 6MSJ gets blocked or negated is attributed to DY's inexperience. The same can be said of Prajna Palm and the 72 arts. No one of really high calibre used them (aside from possibly Sweeper Monk and JMZ who used the fake versions). OK there is XF but he never used the external form but we do see monstrous internal for a 30 yr old with no freak encounter.

[Ghaleon]

And by that same point, the times where 6MSJ gets blocked or negated is attributed to DY's inexperience. The same can be said of Prajna Palm and the 72 arts. No one of really high calibre used them (aside from possibly Sweeper Monk and JMZ who used the fake versions). OK there is XF but he never used the external form but we do see monstrous internal for a 30 yr old with no freak encounter.

It's a difficult skill to master like most great martial arts are. As a consequence we don't get to see it kicka$$ as often since its a complex martial art. When we do *finallY* see it in some of its glory against MRF, KF praised it himself! So what more do you want?

Would KF going down on his knees and begging DY to teach him it convince you guys?