6MSJ discussion.

[Han Solo]

I'll like to start a thread dedicated to my favorite DGSD skill- 6MSJ.

I'll attach the relevant translated passages and then come back to discuss/debate the implication of the awesomeness of this skill.

1) The essence of a sword qi

click to show/hide spoilers

Benyin said, “The ‘Divine Sword of the Six Meridians’ is not an actual, physical sword. It is the transformation of the energy of the Solitary Solar Finger into sword qi. It has substance, but is invisible; it can be described as ‘invisible sword qi’. The ‘Six Meridians’ refer to the six meridians near the hand from which the energy is executed; the “Taiyinfei” channels [Lunar Lung], the “Jueyinxinbao” channels [Yin Pericardium], the “Shaoyinxin” channels [Lesser Yin Heart], the “Taiyangxiaochang” channels [Solar Intestine], the “Yangmingwei” channels [Brilliant Yang Stomach], and the “Shaoyangsanjiao” channels [Three Lesser Yang Cavities]. And as he spoke, he withdrew a rolled up scroll from behind Benguan’s hassock.

Based on YYZ

click to show/hide spoilers

Emperor Baoding was a superb expert of the Solitary Solar Finger; at a single glance, he could tell that the ‘Divine Sword of the Six Meridians’ was indeed based upon the Solitary Solar Finger as its foundation.

MRB's thoughts on 6MSJ

click to show/hide spoilers

when Mr. Murong was discussing the sword techniques of the world with me, he was resolute in his opinion that the ‘Divine Sword of the Six Meridians’ was the best in the world.

The "impossibility" of learning 6MSJ

click to show/hide spoilers

Jiumozhi was secretly startled. In the past, when he discussed the ‘Divine Sword of the Six Meridians’ with Mr. Murong, he learned enough to know that it totally depended on converting internal energy into invisible sword qi. They both felt that no matter how astonishing the techniques were, for a single person to have enough internal energy to use all six of his meridians to create sword qi was most likely impossible.

Kurong vs JMZ

click to show/hide spoilers

But no matter how quickly he retreated, he could not move faster than the sword qi, which arrived with the speed of the thunder and the lightning. With a soft sound, the top of the robe on his shoulder split open, and fresh blood spilled forth. Elder Kurong reversed his thumbs, retracting his internal energy and pulling back towards him.

DY vs JMZ

click to show/hide spoilers

After being provoked into striking out for the past few times, Duan Yu had the vague notion that it was necessary for one to first gather his internal energy, and then agitate it to strike out with a finger; only then could his internal strength and power be unleashed. But as to why this was the cause, he had no clue at all. He lightly struck out with his middle finger, once more shooting forth the ‘Zhongchong Sword’. In a blink of an eye, all of the techniques he had learned from the six manuscripts rushed to the front of his mind. All ten of his fingers struck out continuously, attacking here and there in an inexhaustible onslaught.

Jiumozhi was astounded, and hurriedly generated his internal energy to resist the attacks. Sword qi criss crossed the small room, and sabre energy danced in the air. It was as though countless miniature thunderbolts or raging gales were repeatedly clashing against each other midair. After fighting for a while, Jiumozhi felt as though his opponent’s internal energy was only growing stronger and stronger, and his sword techniques were boundless without fathom, as though creating new stances on the spot. It was totally different from his earlier fight with Benyin, Benxiang, and the others, where they were rigidly sticking to a pre-set formula; in contrast, the variations were much more difficult to predict and fathom.

DY vs MRF

click to show/hide spoilers

Under Murong Fu's foot, Duan Yu saw his father spit blood as Murong Fu prepared to strike him with yet another palm. In his urgency he pointed with his right forefinger at Murong Fu and yelled : "You dare to hit my Father?" In his frenzy, his inner strength naturally surged forward through his forefinger and this was the "Shang Yang Jian" stance of the "Liu Mai Shen Jian". With a 'chi' sound, Murong Fu's sleeves were cut open by the invisible sword and as the sword energy collided with his palm energy, he felt a tingling pain in his hand. Murong Fu was shocked and immediately leapt backwards, leaving Duan Yu free to stand up and point out with the little finger on his left hand, executing a 'Shao Ze Jian' at Murong Fu. Murong Fu waved his
left arm to defend and with 2 slicing sounds, his left sleeve was cut open by the sword chi. Deng Bai Chun shouted out : "Watch out Master, its invisible sword chi! Use a weapon!" Unshealthing his sword, he spun it by the hilt and tossed it towards Murong Fu.

Duan Yu had felt deep bitterness in his heart when he heard Wang Yu Yan cheer out as his father was injured. With inner strength flowing through, he unleashed the Liu Mai Shen Jian, the six strokes of the "Shao Shang", "Shang Yang", "Zhong Chong", "Guan Chong", "Shao Chong" and "Shao Ze" Jian shot out as he thrust and sliced away. Attacking with his mind and body as one, he fought as if divinely inspired.

This set of swordplay from Duan Yu was magnificent and grand in display, each stroke contained heaven shaking power. Murong Fu hooked and slashed but was finding it difficult to resist Duan Yu's attacks.

10 feet- not closer!

click to show/hide spoilers

Yet no matter how fiercely Murong Fu attacked, he was unable to get within ten feet of Duan Yu. As Duan Yu pointed and poked with both hands, Murong Fu was forced into a defensive position and had to dodge unabatedly. Suddenly, there was a loud 'Pai' and the longsword in Murong Fu's hands was shattered into over 30 pieces as it collided with the invisible sword energy from Duan Yu. The pieces soared through the air and reflected the sunlight, sending out shards of brilliant white light.

Single sword stance

click to show/hide spoilers

After escaping from the danger of the flying Judge Pen, Duan Yu's heart calmed down and with a raised thumb, wielded the Shao Shang Jian. This sword stroke covered a great area and contained vast energy. Each stroke which struck out contained rock breaking and sky shaking power, dense and encompassing like the wind and rain. Murong Fu was finding it extremely difficult to block even with both the pen and hook in hand. After heeding Xiao Feng's advice and concentrating only on one stroke of the Shao Shang Jian, his defence showed no more loopholes. If all the Swords contained in the Six Meridian Divine Swords were wielded flexibly, their power would greatly exceed the lone use of any one single Sword, however, Duan Yu did not know the proper techniques and was more suited to wielding a single Sword in isolation. After 10 Swords was displayed, Murong Fu was flush with perspiration and could only retreat backwards. He retreated till his back faced a large tree and had to use it as a defence. At this moment, Duan Yu had completed one more stroke of the Shao Shang Jian and with his thumb bent, suddenly raised his forefinger and changed to the Shang Yang Sword Stance.

The Shang Yang Sword did not have the expanse and coverage of the Shao Shang Sword but in terms of speed, it was incomparably faster. With continuous finger movements, he shot out Sword after Sword with matchless speed. When using a sword, one is dependant on the agility of one's hand and wrist but no matter how fast one's sword strokes, there will always be a gap of a few feet in between one thrust and another. Duan Yu was using his forefinger to issue out invisible sword energy and only had to move his finger within the space of a few inches for each strike, how convenient and easy was that in comparison? In addition, Murong Fu had been forced to retreat to outside the distance of 1 zhang, allowing him no opportunity to retaliate. If Duan Yu were to exchange normal blows with him, it would not be a difficult matter for Murong Fu to deliver a lethal blow by the second stroke, however Duan Yu was only attacking now, with no need to care about defence, giving him the opportunity to freely display the Shang Yang Sword which he had learnt from the Heavenly Dragon Temple, thus putting him at a huge advantage.

XF's thoughts on 6MSJ

click to show/hide spoilers

When Xiao Feng saw the invisible sword energy from Duan Yu getting more and more miraculous, he was filled with both happy reassurance and healthy respect. However, he had a sudden sour feeling in his heart. He thought about Ah Zhu and wondered to himself "On that day when Ah Zhu offered her life in order to save her father, was she afraid that if I killed him, the Duan Clan of Dali would seek me out for revenge and was worried that I would be unable to resist their Six Meridian Divine Swords? Third Brother's Sword Technique is indeed magical. If I was in Murong Fu's position, it would indeed be difficult for me to resist. I...I..how can a Khitan Warrior like me deserve such an act of noble sacrifice from her?"

I'll be back when free to discuss about this skill.

Han Solo

[ChronoReverse]

I guess I'll show the parts that don't really flatter 6MSJ.

Most notably, when JMZ loaded internal energy into his body, he was able to ignore 6MSJ strikes.

Emperor Baoding, Benyin, Bencan, and the others cried out in unison, “Careful!” Each of them struck out with a finger towards Jiumozhi.

The three of them were naturally using the first-class martial arts principle of ‘forcing an enemy into a position where he cannot help but withdraw to defend himself’ in their attack. Jiumozhi had already used his internal energy to protect all the critical points on his body. He didn’t draw back his attack on Duan Yu in the slightest, and chopped perfectly straight down.

JMZ was also able to fight with DY "for a while" with "countless miniature thunderbolts".

All ten of his fingers struck out continuously, attacking here and there in an inexhaustible onslaught.

Jiumozhi was astounded, and hurriedly generated his internal energy to resist the attacks. Sword qi criss crossed the small room, and sabre energy danced in the air. It was as though countless miniature thunderbolts or raging gales were repeatedly clashing against each other midair. After fighting for a while, Jiumozhi felt as though his opponent’s internal energy was only growing stronger and stronger

In the end, despite having greater internal energy than JMZ and pouring out a massive number of (multiple simultaneous) attacks, JMZ was still able to resist the supposed "unmatched" skill.

One has to wonder what XF was so worried about considering JMZ had no trouble launching multiple simultaneous saber chi strikes at once.



Here's the best part:

Now, as he struck out with his finger, his mind unconsciously followed the instructions on the manual. With a ‘chi’ sound, a simple, vigorous, and incomparably powerful energy stabbed towards Jiumozhi.

Startled, Jiumozhi hurriedly used a palm strike from the ‘Blazing Flame Blade’ technique to receive the attack.

It's "incomparably powerful" and is immediately blocked by JMZ in the next sentence lol.

[Ghaleon]

One has to wonder what XF was so worried about considering JMZ had no trouble launching multiple simultaneous saber chi strikes at once.

The 6msg is based on the six merdians emanating through the fingers. So all DY has to do is to use his intention (Li) and focus the Qi through the meridians. With DY's abundant inexhaustible pool of Qi, it's practically like wielding a "sword" by JUST moving your fingers. Imagine that. JMZ could probably just match him for a little while due to his experience in using his technique. But once DY can master his 6msg, JMZ would have a very difficult time. He'll be "at one with his sword" and his exquisitie swordplay will be generated by pure will power alone.

[CC]

It's "incomparably powerful" and is immediately blocked ... in the next sentence lol.

That happens about 20 times in every JY novel.

[PJ]

That happens about 20 times in every JY novel.

Never more notorious than with Zhang Sanfeng. Every time right before Zhang Sanfeng goes through embarrassment, Jin Yong would say something like "he's truly invincible and god-like, but this was an exception..."

[CC]

The thing which I feel JY made a mess of explaining is this.

It was mentioned a few times that it was extremely difficult for 1 person to wield qi swords from all 6 meridians. However, we see that DY was not capable of wielding even 2 of them at the same time.

The fights explicitly showed that he had to switch from one sword to another in sequence. So why is it so impossible to learn all 6 if you can learn 1?

Why does JMZ and MRB feel that it is impossible for anyone to have enough energy to wield all 6 swords?

Did JY intend for 6MSJ to be capable of 6 blades at once but it was only that even DY could not do it?

[CC]

Never more notorious than with Zhang Sanfeng. Every time right before Zhang Sanfeng goes through embarrassment, Jin Yong would say something like "he's truly invincible and god-like, but this was an exception..."

Jin Yong's writings are truly faultless and infallible, except for his blunders.

[Ren Wo Xing]

The thing which I feel JY made a mess of explaining is this.

It was mentioned a few times that it was extremely difficult for 1 person to wield qi swords from all 6 meridians. However, we see that DY was not capable of wielding even 2 of them at the same time.

The fights explicitly showed that he had to switch from one sword to another in sequence. So why is it so impossible to learn all 6 if you can learn 1?

Why does JMZ and MRB feel that it is impossible for anyone to have enough energy to wield all 6 swords?

Did JY intend for 6MSJ to be capable of 6 blades at once but it was only that even DY could not do it?

My impression: the energy streams/flowstream for the 6MSJ has to be pre-prepared, and cannot be generated on the fly; by this I mean, even if a person of the 'Ben' generation of monks learned all six sword techniques, he would not be able to switch from the 'Shaoze' sword to the 'Shaochong' sword in the middle of a fight, since his internal energy was only 'calibrated' for the 'Shaoze' sword; I would imagine that he would have to 'recalibrate' in order to use the 'Shaochong' sword. For a person to be able to use all six swords, he would have to be able to have pre-calibrated all six of his meridians, which could only be done if one had six times as much internal energy (or perhaps less; there may be some overlap, after all).

Let's use the machine-gun analogy again; a 'Ben' generation monk has one machinegun at his disposal, but six different clips of ammo. Each time he wants to switch ammo, he has to change the clip. Whereas Duan Yu's machine gun, by virtue of his superior internal energy, has all six clips pre-attached and is able to switch between them as he pleases.

[PJ]

Did JY intend for 6MSJ to be capable of 6 blades at once but it was only that even DY could not do it?

依这六脉神剑的本意，该是一人同使六脉剑气，但当此末世，武学衰微，已无人能修聚到如此强劲浑厚的内力

This could mean one person is able to use 6 swords one at a time, but it could also mean one person should be able to wield all 6 swords at the same time.

I would like to think that Duan Yu has only scratched the surface of the amazing art of PSSC: the Phenomenal Swords of Six Channels (as Huang Yushi has named it).

[flamer]

Some points:

I really question the virtue of Celestial Dragon Temple Monks' "6MSJ". They were a lot weaker than a single person wielding the 6MSJ. 6MSJ was made for a single person to use, hence its sort of unfair to judge the skill by looking at the "sword formation" as said by JMZ.

The passages regarding JMZ's fight with DY occurs right after the TOTALLY inexperienced Duan Yu who has never learned ANY martial arts learned the 6MSJ. At this point, DY's internal energy is not that much greater than JMZ, if at all. His pattern of attack (if exists at all) would also be really sloppy.

XF made his famous remark after DY made more improvements to his internal energy and used 6MSJ to greater effect. Hence its not that unbelievable.

[Ghaleon]

I agree with Flamer. DY was just inexperienced.

Once DY can fully merge his intention (Li) with the qi circulation through the meridians, the full power of 6MSG would be revealed.

My impression: the energy streams/flowstream for the 6MSJ has to be pre-prepared, and cannot be generated on the fly; by this I mean, even if a person of the 'Ben' generation of monks learned all six sword techniques, he would not be able to switch from the 'Shaoze' sword to the 'Shaochong' sword in the middle of a fight, since his internal energy was only 'calibrated' for the 'Shaoze' sword

Not necessarily true. Qi circulation through a particular meridian has no relation to degrees of "preparation" at all. It has to do with his breathing, intention and will. The more experience DY gets at it, the easier it will be to control his Qi through the meridian. Think of a highway. If a highway is narrow and congested, nothing can get through. But over time, the highway gets more wider (i.e. experience) and more traffic can get through. DY needs to get more experience in qi circulation and fully opening up the channels. And also increase the power of his intention (Li). All this comes from experience and practice.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Doesn't explain why the Ben generation monks weren't able to switch from, say, 'Shaoze' to 'Shaochong'. Your explanation is right for qigong practice in general, but I think mine is a better explanation for 6MSJ in specific.

[Ghaleon]

Well Qi is always circulating throughout the body every second of the day. But most of the Qi is stored in the Dantien. So to fully utilize maximum power output, the channels have to be fully opened allowing maximum Qi flow from the Dantien. Each of the 6 meridians is but only one such channel. So you don't have to pre-arrange or re-calibrate, all the channels are already opened for use at will (intention). DY just needs more experience improving his Qi circulation and further opening up his channels.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Well Qi is always circulating throughout the body every second of the day. But most of the Qi is stored in the Dantien. So to fully utilize maximum power output, the channels have to be fully opened allowing maximum Qi flow from the Dantien. Each of the 6 meridians is but only one such channel. So you don't have to pre-arrange or re-calibrate, all the channels are already opened for use at will (intention). DY just needs more experience improving his Qi circulation and further opening up his channels.

Again, does not explain why a 'Ben' level monk could not switch from 'Shaoze' to 'Shaochong' sword. If he has enough energy to exercise 'Shaoze', why can't he simply redirect the energy to exercise a stroke from the 'Shaochong' sword? The answer has to be that he can't, and the only logical reason that he can't is because for some reason, that energy is at least temporarily 'hard-coded' to that meridian.

[PJ]

Wah, I like Ren Woxing's theory. It's "hard-coded & pre-compiled" instead of "dynamically assigned & compiled at run-time"

[Ghaleon]

As I said, Qi is flowing throughout the body (through many channels and meridians) every second of the day. You can manipulate the flow of Qi through your intentions (and if the channels are opened). But to do this at will with maximum power output would require years of experience. Plus you have to further open up the channels as well. So I don't understand what you mean by the energy is hardcoded to a meridian.

[ChronoReverse]

Erm, before this discussion goes any further, DY was firing 6MSJ freely from all TEN of his fingers in the temple. Is it really implied that his was firing them sequentially?



In any case, I feel it's a flaw again in JY's logic. The emperor was able to learn to convert sword chi very quickly and with ease. It really makes no sense that he wouldn't be able to do it with his other fingers.

However, the fight at the temple also clearly shows how the power of 6MSJ isn't that great. It's not unblockable and its range isn't particularly great either. The technique itself also wasn't so great that it could stand up on its own.

Considering the massive requirement to learn 6MSJ, it really feels that such a large internal energy base could be more effectively used with something else.

The passages regarding JMZ's fight with DY occurs right after the TOTALLY inexperienced Duan Yu who has never learned ANY martial arts learned the 6MSJ. At this point, DY's internal energy is not that much greater than JMZ, if at all. His pattern of attack (if exists at all) would also be really sloppy.

At this point DY's internal energy is easily greater than JMZ's. The fact he was able to fire 6MSJ continuously without tiring is proof enough.

Furthermore, it was BECAUSE DY didn't adhere to 6MSJ's technique and instead used a form of "no technique" that JMZ ended having a lot of trouble predicting the path of the swords. If DY's sword attack pattern was actually sloppy and had holes in it, JMZ's own saber chi would have soared in and pierced DY. As usual, DY's extreme level of luck somehow allowed his "random" sword chi to cover all his holes.

The 6msg is based on the six merdians emanating through the fingers. So all DY has to do is to use his intention (Li) and focus the Qi through the meridians. With DY's abundant inexhaustible pool of Qi, it's practically like wielding a "sword" by JUST moving your fingers.

I have a huge problem with this. Fingers are simply not that nimble when it comes down to it. The range of motion fingers can perform rapidly is very limited. In particular most of sword technique requires arm and wrist motion as well as proper footwork and body positioning.

For instance, the sword tip is accelerated with circular movements. But the rate a finger can "twirl" is rather slow and if forced into speed comes from the wrist instead (twirl your index finger without moving your wrist and then try it again with the wrist flexible. It's faster with the wrist flexible AND goes at the same rate the wrist rotates). Needless to say, stabs require arm extension.

In the end attaching even weightless swords to the fingertips isn't really an advantage.

[K2Grey]

In the translation 6MSJ did not seem to even be better than Flaming Blade Saber. Jiumozhi could attack with many streams of energy at once and could also hang the energy in the air. The inner power would block people and resist attack from Yiyang Zhi even when JMZ wasn't maintaining it and was instead running in the opposite direction.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Actually, Chrono, as an FYI, it wasn't that Duan Yu's techniques or attacks didn't have holes; on the contrary, Jiumozhi saw a lot of flaws. It was simply that his attacks were coming so fast and so furious that Jiumozhi found himself unable to do anything besides defend; this is actually a little bit similar to DG9J.

With regards to the actual attacks themselves, it was stated that Duan Yu was striking with all ten fingers; no implications one way or another, in that sentence, as to if he was firing them in sequence or a few in unison. If it was a sequence, it must have been a really fast sequence, almost indistinguishable from firing at the same time, as Jiumozhi could only defend and couldn't find the time to launch a counter-attack.

[ChronoReverse]

Even more interesting is how 6MSJ was a weaker attack for the monks than using their palms (and presumably 1YZ unless there's some sort of reverse deterioration theory going on).

Jiumozhi smiled slightly. “Everyone here has a profound and deep understanding of martial arts. Can it be that you cannot guess? Please prepare to receive my stances!” As he spoke, his two palms slowly pushed outwards. Elder Kurong, Benyin, Emperor Baoding, and the other three simultaneously felt as though two streams of internal energy were suddenly attacking from different directions. Benyin and the others all felt that they could not use the ‘Divine Sword of the Six Meridians’ to block this energy attack. Each of them faced two streams of energy, and pushed out with palms to block the attack.

6MSJ sword chi can cut but it's weaker?

Actually, Chrono, as an FYI, it wasn't that Duan Yu's techniques or attacks didn't have holes; on the contrary, Jiumozhi saw a lot of flaws. It was simply that his attacks were coming so fast and so furious that Jiumozhi found himself unable to do anything besides defend; this is actually a little bit similar to DG9J.

That's the same thing as no flaws. Nobody can cover every single part of the body at the same time. The key is to defend/attack at the right places/times such that the opponent has no ability to get through. This is independent of speed as it's possible with even slow techniques (Tai Chi comes to mind). If JMZ is unable to fire an LDA between the gaps then it's because the gaps aren't actually flaws and were covered in some way by DY's Lucky Random Attacks.