why do ppl tend to underestimate fighters in SOD?

[flamer]

Hows this:

Yang Guo decided to use his sword instead of palm to meet JLFW. He obviously deemed the sword a better alternative than his palm in that its... tougher to break/more deadly etc.

When that sword broke, he thought of a better sword he owned, the HIS, which will not break on impact.

Hence claiming that with YG's thoughts, HIS>Sad Palms is the same as claiming Normal sword>Sad Palms. Clearly more investigating is required.

[ChronoReverse]

Definitely. There's easily a case that DFBB's internal energy was extremely strong yet it's always downplayed except by a few people (RWX is one of the few who acknowledges it). There's not many direct comparisons to LOCH/ROCH of course, but inside the scope of XAJH, DFBB has one of the strongest internal energies and is THE fastest.

Power, Speed, Technique. If you max out two of these, how could you help but not be dominant?

[Ghaleon]

Definitely. There's easily a case that DFBB's internal energy was extremely strong yet it's always downplayed except by a few people (RWX is one of the few who acknowledges it). There's not many direct comparisons to LOCH/ROCH of course, but inside the scope of XAJH, DFBB has one of the strongest internal energies and is THE fastest.

Power, Speed, Technique. If you max out two of these, how could you help but not be dominant?

Agreed, it's usually downplayed. I mean DFBB could fight with needles for pete's sake. I just think that some people are not even willing to entertain the notion that DFBB could be greater than Greats level. I'm not saying he (or she) is. But I'm thinking some people might not be comfortable with the idea of a super-powerful shemale possibily beating the famous condor heroes.

That could be one of the many reasons why SOD fighters are usually underestimated.

[Ren Ying Ying]

How would they handle DFBB's needles? And how do you know they have more inner power than DFBB? So you're saying one-on-one, one of the ROCH Greats can defeat Invincible East and make him Un-Invincible?

How the Greats fare against DFBB will practically determine how good the fighters in SOD were. IF the Greats can beat DFBB, then the rest of the good fighters in SOD are a few levels below the Greats. If the Greats cannot beat DFBB, then we can have a discussion on how the SOD fighters would fare against the Greats.

I'm asking all this because the thread starter was asking why SOD fighters are underestimated. I'm just wondering if DFBB tends to be underestimated because usually nobody wants a she-male to be super-powerful.

In the end, the arugment is circular. it all comes down to preference, i suppose. if you want DFBB to be uber-powerful, then he is. if you don't want him to be uber-powerful, then he isn't

A number of Jin Yong fans have, at one time or another, subscribed to the theory of declining martial arts through the centuries that span the Northern Sung Dynasty to the early Qing Dynasty. If you remove SPW from the equation, the theory does seem to hold up. SPW, however, throws the entire theory out of whack.

Then perhaps it's not a "timeline" but individual, separate points on the plot. There is NO line.

[Ghaleon]

In the end, the arugment is circular. it all comes down to preference, i suppose. if you want DFBB to be uber-powerful, then he is. if you don't want him to be uber-powerful, then he isn't

Power is in the eye of the beholder!

[ChanceEncounter]

How would they handle DFBB's needles? And how do you know they have more inner power than DFBB? So you're saying one-on-one, one of the ROCH Greats can defeat Invincible East and make him Un-Invincible?

How the Greats fare against DFBB will practically determine how good the fighters in SOD were. IF the Greats can beat DFBB, then the rest of the good fighters in SOD are a few levels below the Greats. If the Greats cannot beat DFBB, then we can have a discussion on how the SOD fighters would fare against the Greats.

I'm asking all this because the thread starter was asking why SOD fighters are underestimated. I'm just wondering if DFBB tends to be underestimated because usually nobody wants a she-male to be super-powerful.

Has nothing to do with his gender, and everything to do with your [lack of] reading comprehension. I never said DFBB's internal was worse than that of GJ or YG, just that his strikes lack the same level of power (and his strokes likely have more flaws). Thus, he will need to depend upon being faster (significantly) than the greats in order to beat them.

Is he faster than them? Perhaps, but the evidence is insufficient to determine.

Hows this:

Yang Guo decided to use his sword instead of palm to meet JLFW. He obviously deemed the sword a better alternative than his palm in that its... tougher to break/more deadly etc.

When that sword broke, he thought of a better sword he owned, the HIS, which will not break on impact.

Hence claiming that with YG's thoughts, HIS>Sad Palms is the same as claiming Normal sword>Sad Palms. Clearly more investigating is required.

This explanation has flaws too. YG had not used the HIS in some number of years, so he did not have access to it on the fly.

YG intended to use Jade Maiden swordplay against JLGS. Jade Maiden is roughly a great level martial art, as is Sad Palms. Now, YG obviously feels that having a weapon is better than having no weapon to attack JLGS, thus he feels that Jade Maiden (with a sword) ~= Sad Palms (with no weapons), but since Jade Maiden affords him a weapon, he will go in better prepared and use it.

When his sword broke, he was very surprised, and felt that he was overconfident, because he had beaten the JLGS 16 years ago and did not anticipate such a large improvement in his skills. He regretted not bringing the HIS, which clearly implies that the HIS > Jade Maiden, using the transitive property above, it can easily be extended into saying that HIS > Sad Palms.

Now, your explanation depends upon a very shaky premise, and that's that YG would go into combat with an inferior technique/position and intentionally put himself at a disadvantage. Obviously if the techniques are roughly on the same level (e.g. Jade Maiden and Sad Palms) and one affords him a weapon while the other doesn't (plus, he can always go back to using Sad Palms if the weapon doesn't work out), then the most prepared means of doing it is simply to use his weapon and then turn back to his palm if needed. That's probably what happened here.

[flamer]

This explanation has flaws too. YG had not used the HIS in some number of years, so he did not have access to it on the fly.

YG intended to use Jade Maiden swordplay against JLGS. Jade Maiden is roughly a great level martial art, as is Sad Palms. Now, YG obviously feels that having a weapon is better than having no weapon to attack JLGS, thus he feels that Jade Maiden (with a sword) ~= Sad Palms (with no weapons), but since Jade Maiden affords him a weapon, he will go in better prepared and use it.

When his sword broke, he was very surprised, and felt that he was overconfident, because he had beaten the JLGS 16 years ago and did not anticipate such a large improvement in his skills. He regretted not bringing the HIS, which clearly implies that the HIS > Jade Maiden, using the transitive property above, it can easily be extended into saying that HIS > Sad Palms.

Now, your explanation depends upon a very shaky premise, and that's that YG would go into combat with an inferior technique/position and intentionally put himself at a disadvantage. Obviously if the techniques are roughly on the same level (e.g. Jade Maiden and Sad Palms) and one affords him a weapon while the other doesn't (plus, he can always go back to using Sad Palms if the weapon doesn't work out), then the most prepared means of doing it is simply to use his weapon and then turn back to his palm if needed. That's probably what happened here.

Yang Guo couldn't have used full Jade Maiden, L/R business. It may be something else like Jade Flute but I doubt he was as well versed in it as HYS to make it a true Great-level demonstration.

Its not that YG would use an inferior technique (it probably was an inferior technique compared to Sad Palms, but just slightly), its that the sword is a... safer option than his fleshly palms, that any damage to it will not be immediately suffered by YG. I think what happened was that YG decided to use a safer option when faced with the decision of sword or palm. So this somehow suggests that in that situation, sword>palm, and HIS>sword(as it does not break easily), but not because of the martial arts itself, just that one is safer over the other.

[disrupt]

YG intended to use Jade Maiden swordplay against JLGS. Jade Maiden is roughly a great level martial art, as is Sad Palms. Now, YG obviously feels that having a weapon is better than having no weapon to attack JLGS, thus he feels that Jade Maiden (with a sword) ~= Sad Palms (with no weapons), but since Jade Maiden affords him a weapon, he will go in better prepared and use it.

My reading of the text just before this, was that YG chose to use a sword (and not the HIS) so he could use the Jade Maiden sword play with XLN. It was because he wanted to fight alongside her, although by all accounts she's more powerful fighting on her own, using L/R technique and he's more powerful on his on with either HIS or Sad Palms. This means his choice is ruled by his emotions and love for XLN, rather than what would be 'most powerful'.

[Ghaleon]

Assuming the inner energy is equal, shouldn't speed be the determining factor?

But it's hard to gauge the inner powers. I don't think DFBB is lacking in it though.

[ChronoReverse]

I never said DFBB's internal was worse than that of GJ or YG, just that his strikes lack the same level of power (and his strokes likely have more flaws). Thus, he will need to depend upon being faster (significantly) than the greats in order to beat them.

You're pretty much saying that DFBB's internal is worse by making the assumption that DFBB's strikes will lack the same power.

DFBB's strikes using a needle (specifically mentioned by JY to be not physically capable of carrying DFBB's maximum power) was stronger than LHC's. And LHC had the benefit of absorbing a lot of internal energy as well as a short stint of YJJ. (Remember, DY acquired internal energy stronger than XF simply by absorbing the internal energy of mid and low tiered fighters. The internal energy adds up fast).

Then DFBB dueled with three high level fighters at the same time. Without breaking a sweat even as the three fighters started to exert themselves.

Is he faster than them? Perhaps, but the evidence is insufficient to determine.

I'd say there's good evidence that he is. Let's put LHC on the really low end of the spectrum and say that he's only about as good as QCJ in LOCH/ROCH. None of the greats were so much more faster and more powerful than QCJ that they could traverse the length of his stabbing sword both ways. They could move fast enough that QCJ can't follow or even retaliate.

The best case is responding with another attack and forcing the other person to take back an attack or outright killing the target. But they can't respond to a first attack with another attack, pull straight back and THEN block the attack. This requires even more speed.

[Ghaleon]

DFBB's strikes using a needle (specifically mentioned by JY to be not physically capable of carrying DFBB's maximum power) was stronger than LHC's. And LHC had the benefit of absorbing a lot of internal energy as well as a short stint of YJJ. (Remember, DY acquired internal energy stronger than XF simply by absorbing the internal energy of mid and low tiered fighters. The internal energy adds up fast).

Then DFBB dueled with three high level fighters at the same time. Without breaking a sweat even as the three fighters started to exert themselves.

That's truly frightening. Using needles to attack, fighting off three high level fighters at the same time, and doing it all effortlessly.

[pannonian]

I'd say there's good evidence that he is. Let's put LHC on the really low end of the spectrum and say that he's only about as good as QCJ in LOCH/ROCH. None of the greats were so much more faster and more powerful than QCJ that they could traverse the length of his stabbing sword both ways. They could move fast enough that QCJ can't follow or even retaliate.

The best case is responding with another attack and forcing the other person to take back an attack or outright killing the target. But they can't respond to a first attack with another attack, pull straight back and THEN block the attack. This requires even more speed.

I'd argue that YG's feat in the Iron Spear temple would put it on a par with DFBB's feat of striking and blocking. The caveat is that YG acted in a burst, but we see DFBB keep up that speed for the length of a fight. For the combo of speed + power, YG matches up the closest to DFBB (not necessarily in magnitude, but in the combo of the two factors). However, while there are similarities in their feats, such as speed of action, infusing a weak object with internal, etc., the circumstances were different, so the comparison isn't so easy to make.

Perhaps it would be of interest to list all the Trilogy feats of absolute (not perceived) speed and infused power, so we can take a closer look. I've mentioned YG's replacement of KZE with the statue while the Jin flunkies were delivering their palms as a feat of absolute speed. Among the internal feats, there's YG's cutting down of a tree with a wooden sword, and ZWJ's cutting off FDB's arm with a wooden sword. Are there any others?

[Ghaleon]

For the combo of speed + power, YG matches up the closest to DFBB

If DFBB could block YG's heavy iron sword with his needles, i'm sold. But I can't quite imagine it in my head...

[ChronoReverse]

That's hardly a fair comparison. It's not like YG can block the HIS using a needle either.

Remember, DFBB only used a needle because that was all that was lying around. If he had a sword he probably would have destroyed his opponents.

[Ghaleon]

That's hardly a fair comparison. It's not like YG can block the HIS using a needle either.

Remember, DFBB only used a needle because that was all that was lying around. If he had a sword he probably would have destroyed his opponents.

I was just saying IF. But yeah that's a good point. DFBB with a sword would have been devastating.

[ChanceEncounter]

Yang Guo couldn't have used full Jade Maiden, L/R business. It may be something else like Jade Flute but I doubt he was as well versed in it as HYS to make it a true Great-level demonstration.

Its not that YG would use an inferior technique (it probably was an inferior technique compared to Sad Palms, but just slightly), its that the sword is a... safer option than his fleshly palms, that any damage to it will not be immediately suffered by YG. I think what happened was that YG decided to use a safer option when faced with the decision of sword or palm. So this somehow suggests that in that situation, sword>palm, and HIS>sword(as it does not break easily), but not because of the martial arts itself, just that one is safer over the other.

He didn't intend to use the L/R Jade Maiden (which is a different name), but rather the Jade Maiden technique of the Ancient Tomb. You could argue, from XLN's showings against JLGS pre-16 years, that the L/R Jade Maiden is technically superior to anything that JLGS had, and is upper echelon in terms of Great-level techniques.

As I said, Jade Maiden, as a technique, is roughly great level, and with a weapon, YG probably made the decision that Jade Maiden + sword ~= or slightly greater than sad palms without a weapon.

Regardless, HIS is > Jade Maiden, and unless your premise is that Yang Guo would go in with an inferior technique and handicap himself, then the argument is moot. Is Sad Palms potentially better than Jade Maiden? Sure. Is the difference significant enough that YG would consider Jade Maiden (with a sword) a step back from Sad Palms? No. Thus, as I said Jade Maiden (with a sword) ~= Sad Palms (with no weapons). And since HIS > Jade Maiden, the transitive property should apply here. There's no logical prefecture in which it wouldn't.

My reading of the text just before this, was that YG chose to use a sword (and not the HIS) so he could use the Jade Maiden sword play with XLN. It was because he wanted to fight alongside her, although by all accounts she's more powerful fighting on her own, using L/R technique and he's more powerful on his on with either HIS or Sad Palms. This means his choice is ruled by his emotions and love for XLN, rather than what would be 'most powerful'.

The Jade Maiden with two partners is still more effective than with a single person. XLN commented that with L/R, she could be more coordinated, but the power of Jade Maiden comes from two people who love each other and will defend for each other. Thus, together, Jade Maiden would still be significantly stronger than as an individual, and alone, it is still roughly a great level art. That's why attacking JLGS with it to start is a smart tactical decision.

YG has a history of smart tactical decisions in fights, and there's no reason to suspect that he would suddenly get stupid for the most important fight of his life. In order to make that argument, you would have to argue that YG knowingly put himself at a tactical disadvantage merely to have a sword with him, and I don't believe that would be the case.

You're pretty much saying that DFBB's internal is worse by making the assumption that DFBB's strikes will lack the same power.

DFBB's strikes using a needle (specifically mentioned by JY to be not physically capable of carrying DFBB's maximum power) was stronger than LHC's. And LHC had the benefit of absorbing a lot of internal energy as well as a short stint of YJJ. (Remember, DY acquired internal energy stronger than XF simply by absorbing the internal energy of mid and low tiered fighters. The internal energy adds up fast).

Then DFBB dueled with three high level fighters at the same time. Without breaking a sweat even as the three fighters started to exert themselves.

No. I'm not.

DFBB's strikes are powerful, but they do not have any specific technique that anchors that power. Whereas something like GJ's palm strikes involve both powerful internal (9 Yin) with a powerful external (XL18Z). Likewise with YG's (Ancient Tomb/DGQB training with Sad Palms external). Both of these are described as fiercely yang, extremely outwardly powerful strokes that can overwhelm an opponent.

You can't simply transpose the events of the fight in XAJH with different characters, because what would happen in one circumstance could be completely different in another.

Specifically, KHBD/BXJ is mentioned as a speed-oriented attack. The techniques themselves are not flawless, nor are they specifically powerful, but it relies upon overwhelming speed to cover up all their flaws.

I'd say there's good evidence that he is. Let's put LHC on the really low end of the spectrum and say that he's only about as good as QCJ in LOCH/ROCH. None of the greats were so much more faster and more powerful than QCJ that they could traverse the length of his stabbing sword both ways. They could move fast enough that QCJ can't follow or even retaliate.

The best case is responding with another attack and forcing the other person to take back an attack or outright killing the target. But they can't respond to a first attack with another attack, pull straight back and THEN block the attack. This requires even more speed.

How many stances would QCJ last against a great going all out? The answer is hardly any.

And again, this comparison is largely flawed. DFBB wins by outspeeding his opponents. In this circumstance, it's highly unlikely he would simply power through someone like GJ.

Could he in fact be faster and beat him? Sure, I could entertain that thought. But where's the evidence one way or the other?

[ChronoReverse]

And again, this comparison is largely flawed. DFBB wins by outspeeding his opponents. In this circumstance, it's highly unlikely he would simply power through someone like GJ.

You're ignoring that DESPITE all your rhetoric about "anchoring the power", DFBB nonetheless demonstrates tremendous power.

You can put it all flowery and such but it still remains that DFBB could transmit huge force through even a needle which is specifically mentioned to not physically be capable of transmitting force well.

Who cares if KHBD is designed for power or not. DFBB has power regardless so obviously he has enough internal energy that it could be used for extreme speed AND power.

How many stances would QCJ last against a great going all out? The answer is hardly any.

Completely missing the point. It's not how long QCJ can last. LHC himself would've died in an instant if he hadn't attacked first (nor did DFBB go all out on him). The question is whether a Great has enough movement speed to exceed QCJ's attack speed by at least 2x. This is far more speed than simply being fast enough to dodge, disarm, kill, relocate, or spin QCJ.

Could he in fact be faster and beat him? Sure, I could entertain that thought. But where's the evidence one way or the other?

In fact, this sentence betrays your bias, that to you, more likely than not, DFBB is weaker in the first place.

From looking simply at feats, even RWX isn't necessarily below the LOCH/ROCH Greats. It's from this thought that one realizes just how powerful DFBB was.

[flamer]

He didn't intend to use the L/R Jade Maiden (which is a different name), but rather the Jade Maiden technique of the Ancient Tomb. You could argue, from XLN's showings against JLGS pre-16 years, that the L/R Jade Maiden is technically superior to anything that JLGS had, and is upper echelon in terms of Great-level techniques.

As I said, Jade Maiden, as a technique, is roughly great level, and with a weapon, YG probably made the decision that Jade Maiden + sword ~= or slightly greater than sad palms without a weapon.

Regardless, HIS is > Jade Maiden, and unless your premise is that Yang Guo would go in with an inferior technique and handicap himself, then the argument is moot. Is Sad Palms potentially better than Jade Maiden? Sure. Is the difference significant enough that YG would consider Jade Maiden (with a sword) a step back from Sad Palms? No. Thus, as I said Jade Maiden (with a sword) ~= Sad Palms (with no weapons). And since HIS > Jade Maiden, the transitive property should apply here. There's no logical prefecture in which it wouldn't.

Ok there is a bit of a translation issue but I sorted it out. Jade Maiden of Ancient Tomb Sect would not be Great-level unfortunately, while the full combined 2 person,L/R Jade Maiden would be.

Firstly, I agree that HIS>Ancient Tomb Jade Maiden, but also Sad Palms>Ancient Tomb Jade Maiden. As I said, YG chose a safer option, despite a weaker technique, as I explained before, that damage would not be deadly immediately for YG.What was obvious is that YG thought Jade Maiden > (or safer) than Sad Palms, as he was shocked of the great force of JLFW. I think this because of 2 reasons.

1) The premise that whatever sword techniques YG had, none of them is on Great-level, or Sad Palms level. 2) YG made a logical right choice in choosing to use a sword.

It may seem contradictory but it shows that YG thought the sword is a SAFER option, rather than a better option overall.

[ChanceEncounter]

You're ignoring that DESPITE all your rhetoric about "anchoring the power", DFBB nonetheless demonstrates tremendous power.

You can put it all flowery and such but it still remains that DFBB could transmit huge force through even a needle which is specifically mentioned to not physically be capable of transmitting force well.

Who cares if KHBD is designed for power or not. DFBB has power regardless so obviously he has enough internal energy that it could be used for extreme speed AND power.

And so has GJ.

The only one spitting rhetoric is you. When we're comparing feats across novels and in different contexts, we have to look at it beyond the surface. The truth is that while DFBB does display tremendous power, so too does GJ, but GJ actually has BOTH internal and external power, making it MORE likely that, unless there is a big discrepancy in internal energy, that GJ's strikes carry more power.

Your argument consists of DFBB transmitting strong force through a needle, and that proves that he's strong. YG was able to transmit lethal force through a hairpin, does that mean that he's just as strong? Context.

Completely missing the point. It's not how long QCJ can last. LHC himself would've died in an instant if he hadn't attacked first (nor did DFBB go all out on him). The question is whether a Great has enough movement speed to exceed QCJ's attack speed by at least 2x. This is far more speed than simply being fast enough to dodge, disarm, kill, relocate, or spin QCJ.

And absent direct comparisons (which don't really exist) we cannot make this assumption.

We do know that the great level fighters generally have no difficulty with people of QCJ's level. YG was able to beat the Mongolian fighters in ONE STANCE, and that against inferior opponents, they are too fast for them to follow.

In fact, this sentence betrays your bias, that to you, more likely than not, DFBB is weaker in the first place.

From looking simply at feats, even RWX isn't necessarily below the LOCH/ROCH Greats. It's from this thought that one realizes just how powerful DFBB was.

RWX's feats are probably LOCH level. But from the novel, they improved substantially throughout ROCH. By the end of the ROCH novel, it's hard to say that RWX's feats alone match him up there anymore.

Furthermore, what I'm saying is that DFBB may be stronger than GJ or YG, or he may be weaker, but the evidence is too shaky to decide. What is likely is that DFBB would need to be faster than the greats to beat them, because he doesn't have the external techniques that match up with the greats. We don't have the evidence either way to make a definitive judgment.

What you're saying is that DFBB transmitted great power with a needle, much exceeding that of LHC's, which proves that he has the power to match the greats (without context). And since he is significantly faster than the others that he faced, he would also be faster than the Greats of ROCH, and thus he would win.

Who's biased? The former relies on evidence, the latter context-less assumption.

Ok there is a bit of a translation issue but I sorted it out. Jade Maiden of Ancient Tomb Sect would not be Great-level unfortunately, while the full combined 2 person,L/R Jade Maiden would be.

Firstly, I agree that HIS>Ancient Tomb Jade Maiden, but also Sad Palms>Ancient Tomb Jade Maiden. As I said, YG chose a safer option, despite a weaker technique, as I explained before, that damage would not be deadly immediately for YG.What was obvious is that YG thought Jade Maiden > (or safer) than Sad Palms, as he was shocked of the great force of JLFW. I think this because of 2 reasons.

1) The premise that whatever sword techniques YG had, none of them is on Great-level, or Sad Palms level. 2) YG made a logical right choice in choosing to use a sword.

It may seem contradictory but it shows that YG thought the sword is a SAFER option, rather than a better option overall.

Jade Maiden is great level in the same sense that Jade Flute is great level. They were compared in the novel and HIS was stated to be better than all of the previously known great swordplays, including the aforementioned two. Jade Maiden is also the penultimate art of a proto-Great level figure.

Jade Maiden L/R is hardly a single person technique. In fact, it's one person performing two synergizing techniques that could in fact, overcome differences in strength against strong opponents, which would put it on the upper echelon of great-level techniques.

The "safer" argument is a very difficult one to presume. Even after YG knew that he could fight on even footing (and even force JLGS into a disadvantage) with Sad Palms, he still tried to use the sword that GJ threw at him. Why would he, for the second time, go against something that worked for a reason that was never elaborated in the books (safety)?

As mentioned, the safety argument is tenuous at best, and relies on assumptions that distort logic into a very convoluted form. It would rely upon YG sacrificing an OVERALL tactical advantage, EVEN AFTER KNOWING that he had an advantage with Sad Palms. The most likely, simplest (Occam's Razor) assumption would be that Jade Maiden with a sword is ~= Sad Palms without a weapon, and that Jade Maiden is roughly a great level art (likely a low level great level art).

The HIS, at the very least, is a very high great-level art, and would have given him much more of an advantage in that situation, which is why he regretted it.

In fact, since the HIS would give him a big advantage in most every conceivable situation, and since he never intended to replace HIS with sad palms (or to improve HIS with sad palms) it's reasonable to assume that HIS > Sad Palms. QED.

[ChronoReverse]

Your argument consists of DFBB transmitting strong force through a needle, and that proves that he's strong. YG was able to transmit lethal force through a hairpin, does that mean that he's just as strong? Context.

Lethal force and force enough to numb a strong fighter's arm through a sword are entirely different magnitudes of power.

Are you purposely being obtuse?

And absent direct comparisons (which don't really exist) we cannot make this assumption.

We do know that the great level fighters generally have no difficulty with people of QCJ's level. YG was able to beat the Mongolian fighters in ONE STANCE, and that against inferior opponents, they are too fast for them to follow.

We have plenty of direct comparisons. We already know that LHC can execute over a dozen strikes in a blink of an eye even without internal energy and half-dead. Only XLN, undisputed in terms of attack speed in ROCH, exceeds this among the great-classed fighters in ROCH.

And DFBB clearly finds this level of speed nothing at all.



Furthermore, there's a much greater magnitude of speed required to do something like DFBB's feat compared to the relatively very pedestrian task of defeating someone in one stance. DFBB very nearly killed LHC in one stance even though LHC knew exactly what DFBB was about to do and even attacked first in counter.

What you're saying is that DFBB transmitted great power with a needle, much exceeding that of LHC's, which proves that he has the power to match the greats (without context). And since he is significantly faster than the others that he faced, he would also be faster than the Greats of ROCH, and thus he would win.

No, I didn't say that. I said that shows he has great power in addition to speed. I also mentioned how he easily fought off three people of LHC's caliber or higher. Which is why he is likely at least as strong as a Great (overall). Especially since one of those fighters is at minimum LOCH great level.

If anything, it shows that even a great is unlikely to be able to simply power through DFBB. Not that DFBB has enough power to do that (in terms of raw power). We already know that if the internal energy is equivalent, the skilled fighters' moves tend to cancel out anyway so the raw force is academic.

Who's biased? The former relies on evidence, the latter context-less assumption.

There's context. You just have to examine it more.


In any case, this is getting obfuscated.

In summary:
(1) DFBB doesn't lack power (force and internal energy) such that he can't simply be powered through. It's also clear that he can maintain this sort of power for a long time
(2) DFBB was tremendously fast in a scale that his movement speed is faster than the attack speed of even very quick attackers
(3) DFBB's technique was fairly pedestrian