why do ppl tend to underestimate fighters in SOD?

[Ren Ying Ying]

And by technique, I mean just that... technique.

The Sunflower Manual is a topnotch internal manual. It's ability to train up someone's internal, and then direct all of that into pure speed is certainly impressive, but we have no basis of comparison to other elite manuals. How does it compare to the 9Yin manual? I'm willing to bet the latter has a few tricks of its own.

The Sunflower/BXJ manual as a whole never made it to DFBB. And we know, straight from the horse's mouth, that DG9J (with no real internal component) is better than the Sunflower/BXJ, but just that LHC was not well versed enough to use it at the adequate level.

The overall level of the martial artist is a function of his or her internal energy combined with his or her technique to 'bring it to the surface' via external techniques. XZ could perform LDA attacks simply because his internal was that good, even if he did not have the exquisiteness of technique.

In the case of the ROCH elites, we know they have both good internal and external components. It's not an either/or or weighing one component larger than the other. It's the basic principle that having both is better than having one.

The Sunflower Manual is not a pure internal art.

There are techniques attached to it, otherwise LHC would not have been able to identify the fact that Yue Buqun practiced Sunflower or something like it (I doubt he would base the connection simply from speed). It has been mentioned many times that practioneers of the Sunflower/Bixie manual are much too lured and entranced by the content AFTER the opening line that they are willing to sacrifice their goods. While it is most logical that the techniques involved will probably be highly depending on the speed (& internal), but it is not to say that there are no techniques involved.

In any case, IF it was a pure internal art, then it should not translate into the insane degree of speed, unless DFBB really had MASSIVE internal (possibly the level of Xu Zhu or even higher). Thus, if we assume that DFBB's internal was not THAT massive, then the Sunflower Manual will somehow translate the power into super speed--"speed boost". In that case, how is it any "inferior" to arts like 18 Dragon Palms that translate power into more power--"power boost"? Does Power + "Power boost" necessarily win over Power + Speed "boost"? Or is it the degree of "speed boost" from DFBB cannot match the "power boost" of XL18Z? (Of course, for the sake of the argument, we are assuming that DFBB & the "Greats" have the same base level of internal power.)

[Ren Wo Xing]

Which, still doesn't really affect my primary point.

If you had GJ fight in the XAJH universe, he'd get schooled. One of the many scrubs who relies on internal that can't deal with "surprising positions."

If you have DFBB fight in the LOCH/ROCH universe where internal >>> techniques, he/she will lose before getting within sword range.

How can you compare them?

Is internal >>> techniques in ROCH? Yang Guo, using the Dog Beating Stick, was handily winning against Huo Du. Yang Guo and XLN had crappy internals, but their combined techniques were so good that they put a Great levels fighter in JLGS on the defensive and scared the crap out of him. Later, XLN by herself was able to fight him to a standstill, and she had WAY lower internal.

I think it's not so much that internal >>> techniques, it's just that there was almost no one who had super techniques but horrible internal like Linghu Chong.

And yes, KHBD definitely has techniques attached to it.

[HuntingX]

Huo Du had some pretty pathetic inner energy; within a few months of that encounter, YG would let out his roar (which shocked even HYS). Thus, YG's internal at that point was not bad at all. It was probably marginally worse than princy, but not too much worse.

XLN fought him to a standstill for a brief period, but it was specifically stated to be unsustainable. In other words, delaying. She's fast right? That's reasonable.

And it took TWO people with great technique, not 1, to beat down JLFW.

I stand by my statement concerning the condor trilogy, although inner energy is clearly MORE prominent in LOCH and HSDS than in ROCH, where the tomb sect has some weird sword skills.

[Ren Wo Xing]

It was specifically stated that YG's internal energy could not be compared in the same breath to Huo Du's: "His internal energy was profound; he and Yang Guo should not be mentioned in the same breath."

And XLN was not fighting him to a standstill; she was winning until Xiao Xiangzi, Ni Moxing, and Yin Kexi jumped in. See below.

By the time they reached fifty or sixty moves, Fawang looked to be at risk, he withdrew his golden wheel to shield himself and wasn’t confident enough to launch it again. After several more moves, this time the silver wheel was withdrawn to tighten his defense further. By the time, all five wheels were back with him, his fighting style was all-defensive just like Xiaoxiang Zi and others fought her before. The five wheels weight, size, colour and shape were all different from each other. Either it was sharp or more curved; they organized into five rings of light, which rolled all over the place around him.

[....]

Then suddenly, Nimoxing felt something on his face, as if a miniature hidden weapon had struck him. In a moment of shock he stroked the area of contact, but found no wound on his face; instead there was blood on his palm. His mind was dumbfounded for a while, but then he spotted a drop of blood flying towards Yin Kexi. Now he was well aware that one person was injured in the fierce battle. In a short while, Xiao Longnu’s white garment was stained with over ten scattered splashes of blood. It was as if there were a few peach blossoms on a white silk fabric, which dazzled the eyes through its gay coloring. Nimoxing cheerfully spoke: “The demon girl has been injured!” Immediately after two flashes of the sword’s reflection, Fawang quietly moaned. Xiaoxiang Zi coldly butted in: “No, it’s the monk who got hurt!”

Xiaoxiang Zi’s initial judgment was right, the blood from Fawang’s injury sprayed over Xiao Longnu. He believed if Fawang was killed by her hands, then there’s no way they can stop her. For that reason he called out: “Brother Yin, Brother Xiao, let’s attack her together!” He wielded his metal snake and slowly pressed in behind Xiao Longnu. Xiaoxiang Zi and Yin Kexi also felt that they could not look on unconcerned, so they immediately split themselves left and right and approached them.

Fawang has been hit three times by her sword, but all were light injuries. But just when he’s in grave danger, backup arrived. He felt a sense of relief, and saw Xiaoxiang Zi and the other two weren’t at all opening up any sort of attack. They were rather using their weapons to protect themselves as they moved their positions to three sides steadily closing in on her. They knew that if the conflict is slightly prolonged, Xiao Longnu’s hourglass will run out.

These guys actually believed that XLN was going to kill JLGS, and JLGS himself felt that he was in great danger and felt a sense of relief that they joined in to help. Granted, JLGS himself wasn't playing to his strengths and was being timid (as always), but he always is cowardly/easily shaken, and there is little question that at the rate things were going, if they did not interfere, he would have lost. The standstill came only when three other high class fighters joined in...and really, isn't that the equivalent of what Guo Jing was doing at the Mongolian camp?

Inner power 'trumps' technique in the other two books because there was no one who knew an extremely high level technique skill who did not also have a correspondingly powerful internal energy skill. There simply are no Greats-level techniques that are not used without the backup of strong internal energy. The only example I can think of is Guo Jing, whose internal energy should be significantly inferior to Lingzhi Shangren, managing to seriously scare the latter with his single-stanced Dragon Palm.

[ChronoReverse]

Is internal >>> techniques

Ironically, it isn't really said that "internal > techniques" anywhere except XAJH. Even there it was just Huashan Qi Branch philosophy. With that said, there is some implicit emphasis on internal-type arts. But even then, there's always a technique attached somehow.


But in terms of actual events and portrayals, technique and power are both important in the "primary" books. This is true of DGSD, LOCH, ROCH, HSDS, and XAJH (which also adds speed as a third factor).

Remember, freak cases like XZ are not indicative of anything. They have so much internal that it can help cover the other factors. That's why you have to take some of the comments in context and not apply it universally.

Inner power 'trumps' technique in the other two books because there was no one who knew an extremely high level technique skill who did not also have a correspondingly powerful internal energy skill.

There's ZBT in LOCH. After he was told he could use L/R to improve his technique, ZBT was stronger than HYS and OYF. However, ZBT's internal energy as of that point was weaker than HYS's (although still in the same ballpark) to the point where taking a palm attack from HYS would cause pain in his chest.

L/R made him stronger even before taking 9 Yin into account simply because of the advantage of technique.


ZWJ also demonstrated this before he learned 9 Yang in 1st edition where he severely injured someone with a surprise XL18P. Since he didn't exactly have internal energy worth mentioning at this point, it was the power of XL18P that did it.

[Han Solo]

Only in 1st ed. did ZWJ learned HL18Palm.

Han Solo

[HuntingX]

GJ using XL18Z vs Baldy is actually supportive of my argument.

What is XL18Z but a more EFFICIENT use of inner power? In other words, it's an energy magnifier; the more you have, the better it becomes. But it is more or less an inner energy transmitter.

I guess i never really pictured JLFW LOSING to XLN, but the text contradicts me, so not much I can say there. I stand by my JLFW sucks Bald Donkey balls point.

I want to note something: while implied, it is not explicitly stated that it was Huo Du's ENERGY that was superior; just that he was superior as a martial artist.

Finally, we never (NEVER) see the Dog Beating Stick shown off vs elite fighters, in any book. Apparently, it can spank Huo Du. But not a whole lot else. And apparently, OYF can think up a way to break it? Seems like a pretty ordinary technique.

It's important we differentiate techniques that are used exclusively to propagate internal energy (palm forms, LDA, etc.) vs weapon techniques (ALA XAJH). It's better we don't use the term "techniques" for both. Instead, it's probably more logical to lump palm forms with internal energy.

[Ken Cheng]

Finally, we never (NEVER) see the Dog Beating Stick shown off vs elite fighters, in any book. Apparently, it can spank Huo Du. But not a whole lot else. And apparently, OYF can think up a way to break it?

Only if he has the luxury of an entire, undisturbed night to ponder it...which he wouldn't have in a real combat situation.

[HuntingX]

It's not like the dog beating stick was H7G's innovation on the spot.

Doesn't it seem odd that this "legendary" technique passed down generation after generation can be broken in ONE NIGHT? That's ridiculous.

That's like someone solving Fermat's last theorem on a couple pages of notebook paper after staying up all night. WTF?

[Ren Wo Xing]

OYF didn't really 'defeat' the Dog Beating Stick; he just came up with counters to the individual stances and changes within them, but not how they came together as a whole.

That day on the peak of Mount Hua after both Hong Qigong and Ouyang Feng had suffered internal injuries in their duel, Hong Qigong had taught Yang Guo every stance and every change so that he could perform it for Ouyang Feng. But he didn’t teach him a single word of the formulae that are needed when fighting an enemy. Hong Qigong thought that without the formulae, the techniques would be useless to him.

[yittz]

Individual counters does not equate to being broken.

Dog beating stick was H7G's ace in sleeve going into 2nd Mt Hua.

When H7G taught HR, the purpose was to keep OYK at bay. So in H7G's opinion HR, who haven't learnt 10% of HYS's abilities, + DGBF was sufficient to deal with OYK, who haven't learnt 30% of OYF's abilities.

[flamer]

Only in 1st ed. did ZWJ learned HL18Palm.

Han Solo

0_0! ZWJ learned XL18Z? Whao...

[ChronoReverse]

Yup.

@Han

I do believe I mentioned that it was in 1st edition within the very same breath =)




Incidentally, XXDF does have auto-protect. It's just that there's no auto-counter

"It's not that. Daddy said that even though absorbing other people's energies would protect your body, but you must use it to injure other people. Compared to the completed internal art, you're still one level lower."

So it's not completely useless in event of surprise attack.

[HuntingX]

@RWX

He thought the stances would be useless to YG, NOT useless to demonstrate!

The whole point was that while OYF would understand the brilliance of the Dog Beating Stick, he wouldn't really be breaking the rules and teaching and outsider their ultimate technique.

So while OYF got a glimpse of the TECHNIQUE portion, YG didn't really get to learn how to APPLY it in fights. However, OYF clearly got to see the whole thing. That IS the point, after all.

And, it's a break, counter, however you want to put it. Just like HYS broke LMC's MA by telling YG what to do, so did OYF break dog beating stick, just by sitting in a stinking cave half dead thinking about it.

Can anyone "break" XL18Z?

[Ren Ying Ying]

Can anyone "break" XL18Z?

slighly glimpsing back to the original topic...if there is a stance, there is a counter. So, yes.

[Ghaleon]

Are we still underestimating SOD fighters?

Btw how would you guys rate RWX, FZ and LHC in the context of the first class condor trilogy fighters?

[ChanceEncounter]

The actual level of Jade Maiden is quite irrelevant as that it does not matter if YG never displayed it properly. Just like my example that YG with Jade Flute Swordplay will not be as strong as HYS using the Jade Flute Swordplay. There is still a level of competency even with the same internal energy.

Another thing to note is the LCY only invented Jade Maiden to combat/work with WCY. I would think LCY was already great before that invention, hence Jade Maiden itself being Great-level in the first place is debatable. It may well be given LCY's proficiency and overall skill.

It was quite clear from the passage that SAFETY was the thing in YG's mind before he chose to use the sword. And given my 2 postulates, it shows quite clearly that YG chose it for the safety of the physical sword. JUST for the sake of a sword, to prevent damage. Maybe you should try to investigate into my 2 postulates before we continue again, and point out if I made any mistakes.

Why are you putting the "you must be saying YG got stupid" and the whole "logic perversion" nonsense into my mouth (posts), while I intended none of those. There is clearly no lost sense of logic on my part, just like I wouldn't say you have faulty logic just because I don't agree with you. There is no need to discuss logic anymore, just bring on your points on this topic, answer to my points and it will all be good.

I think you are confusing the simple notion of safety with overall ability of a skill. YG chose the use the sword for pure safety (that it involves metal), not that he made a knowing choice for an inferior skill. It was an inferior skill but it was a safer bet, that in case YG's palms couldn't take JLFW, he wouldn't be crippled in the first go, with more time to react and change.

You clearly misconstrued what I was saying. I'm saying we don't KNOW YG's level with Jade Maiden since we never see him use it with Great Level internal. However, judging by his actions, he must feel that he is comparably skilled with it to compete. Even though Jade Maiden wasn't 'invented' for the purpose of being a "great-level" (a nebulous fan grouping) doesn't mean that it wasn't a great level art. It clearly was strong enough to counter WCY's swordplay, and was only exceeded by 9Yin, which turns out to be an art that's arguably greater than the Greats' art, given how much they coveted it.

In the same vein, just because YG created Sad Palms out of his boredom and loneliness doesn't mean it isn't a Great Level art (it is). The fact that LCY was great-level would only offer additional reason to believe that her ultimate swordplay is a great level swordplay, because it includes all the skills that she learned to get to that level. Also, when YG was learning HIS, the narrator mentioned that it was one of the advanced/great swordplays in Wulin.

If you want to bring up the idea of discussing points, you have actually counter mine. All you're doing is parrotting the same thing, with no basis in the novel, even when such an argument would go against Occam's Razor and conventional character dynamics. YG doesn't intentionally substitute an art of more utility with one of less utility, and utility includes safety.

As I said, the art of how effective the art is, as a offensive tool, is not the entirety of the art. Evidently YG felt that Jade Maiden, with having a sword, would yield comparable win-loss/utility as using Sad Palms. Otherwise, he would be violating every law of conventional wisdom and economics (that an individual would not substitute another good or service without earning similar returns as the one he traded).

So, in effect, Sad Palms, offensively, may be superior to Jade Maiden (with a sword). Jade Maiden (with a sword) may be safer than Sad Palms. OVERALL, Jade Maiden (with a sword) offers as much utility as Sad Palms without a weapon. Anything else doesn't make sense in selecting Jade Maiden as his primary offense against JLGS, and then returning to it even after he knows that he can stand toe-to-toe with him with Sad Palms, which is the key fact that you keep missing/glossing over.

You have yet to address this very basic concept, and all you do is repeat the same defeated point ad nauseum in the effort to 'win' the argument. Please bring something to the table.

LOL Win. Thats the feeling I get every time I discuss with ChanceEncounter.

From the guy that has, on several occasions, twisted the very definitions of words and lines in the text (to argue that JLGS was NOT losing against YG on the platform, and that the HIS did not represent a higher art to YG than the ones he learned before), this is quite funny.

As I said, please, in proper debating form, point out why YG would chose an art with less overall utility (which includes safety as one aspect) over an art with greater overall utility, even after knowing that he can fight him on even footing with the latter art.

Until you do this, you haven't even commented on the principle point in the argument, much less done anything that would stand up in a proper debate.

Your argument relies upon two principles that cannot coexist in one argument.

The level of a skill depends upon two things:

1.) The ability to BEAT PEOPLE.
2.) The ability to DEFEND YOURSELF.

If a skill allows you to beat everyone at the risk of killing yourself, it's probably not a great skill. Likewise with a skill that lets you turtle indefinitely but with no offensive ability whatsoever. The skills overall utility depends on its ability to do BOTH.

Thus, if you argue that Jade Maiden is not as strong, but a "safer" art, then you are saying that it is lacking in #1 against Sad Palms, but superior in #2. Thus, whatever it loses in #1, YG feels it gains in #2 to the point where, against JLGS, it's on even or better footing than Sad Palms (thus he chose to go into initially, and then again when he received another sword).

Your argument is that, since Jade Maiden is inferior (according to you) in #1, it must be an inferior skill and YG did not think rationally. This is not a proper argument because it violates principle 2.

You're claiming that, since it's lacking in #1, it's an inferior art, but that even though it exceeds Sad Palms in #2, it somehow is still an inferior art. This is an irrational conclusion, because we know that--barring an externality--an individual is not going to pick something of lower utility than something of higher utility when given the choice. Ergo, because YG picked Jade Maiden over Sad Palms (twice, I might add), he feels that Jade Maiden offers him greater utility. And because we KNOW HIS has greater utility than Jade Maiden, HIS > Jade Maiden, which by transitive property, HIS > Sad Palms.

QED, as I said.

[ChanceEncounter]

Are we still underestimating SOD fighters?

Btw how would you guys rate RWX, FZ and LHC in the context of the first class condor trilogy fighters?

FZ is the strongest fighter in XAJH this side of DFBB. I feel that he could probably contend for the #1 title at Hua Shan at the end of LOCH.