Taiji Fist verses XL18 Palm

[shin_takeda]

One's extreme hard brute force, while the other is supposed to be especially made for overcoming hard force with yielding softness, how do the two of these skills match up them in a fight if we say that fighter's are of relatively equal internal energy level and experience?

[CC]

One's extreme hard brute force, while the other is supposed to be especially made for overcoming hard force with yielding softness, how do the two of these skills match up them in a fight if we say that fighter's are of relatively equal internal energy level and experience?

Actually, when used properly, you could theoretically argue that they follow opposite ends of the same principle.

One of them hides softness within extreme hardness and one of them hides hardness within the softness.

I'd say it'll end up with a stalemate if all else equal (just like if we were to compare every other elite skill).

[flamer]

According to ZBT's famous statement, Soft can counter Hard but it depends on the proficiency of users. So assuming equal internal energy etc, it should be a stalemate. ie soft will not be a disadvantage.

[kyss of the sword]

HL18Z at the hardest will produce softness while taji actually is about balancing rather then then just softness, if your opponent is also soft, respond accordingly. HL18Z is not easy to user because it's timing and theory is not then same as other palm skills. that's why so few people had mastered it fully. taiji can be learnt by anyone but mastery depends on comprehension.

[shin_takeda]

All the tv series portray XL18Z as a ultra powerful blast, is that how it actually is?

[ChanceEncounter]

All the tv series portray XL18Z as a ultra powerful blast, is that how it actually is?

Assuming internal is equal, it's probably the most "Yang" and hardest of the prominent palm styles in the JY lore, yes. Assuming equal mastery of palm attacks and equal internal energy, I would certainly bet on XL18Z on a "topple the wall" contest.

[Shi-Potian]

Assuming internal is equal, it's probably the most "Yang" and hardest of the prominent palm styles in the JY lore, yes. Assuming equal mastery of palm attacks and equal internal energy, I would certainly bet on XL18Z on a "topple the wall" contest.

I on the other hand; In the exact same situation of similar mastery/internal energy would cast my vote towards taiji!!

[Yeung Gor]

Sad Palms deserve a mention in terms of power, it does certainly rival HL18Z according to HYS.

[Exodus]

XF would blast ZWJ away

[shin_takeda]

Taiji is basically the same principle as QKDNY right? As well as the Murong family thing, is the "shifting" power of Taiji as effective as the other two famous "force shifting, borrowing force" arts?

[kyss of the sword]

QKDNY and starshiftinf skill both capture and uses the opponents force against them but it sort of requires equal force to the opponent to turn back the force used against you. if your force is inadequte, you are likely to be injured severely from fire deviation(QKDNY as said in HSDS) or or the opponent hay capture your force instead(XF did so against MRF). taiji quan uses the principle of 4liang(grams) moves 1000taels(kilos). smaller force appiled stratgically to maniplate the opponents larger force. QKDNY's ability to turn the opponents force is greater then taiji quan but it is harder to master and disastrous to fail in your move.

HL18Z is simple on the outside, kind of the dugu qiubai heavy sword version of palms skills. the improtant aspect of the palm is in the timing of the release of energy. so the palm has the highest force of any palm strike. but it lacks in variations and clever changes compared to iron palms and other palm skills through it doesn't need them. it was unmatched in force for centuies till toad stance and sad palms(which had the strong points of many skills including toad stance) came along.

[shin_takeda]

Ah I see, does Taiji in jinyong need to make physical contact like the taiji in real life with sticky hands and what not, or can it be applied at range via "energy field" like thing and used to neutralize say a blast of palm energy

[kyss of the sword]

you can send out a soft chi to drag or push your opponrnt but most moves in wuxia, even high level ones are executed by touch. sending out your force takes more energy then striking directly. most times, the injuring before striking directly occurs becasue ther palm force is so strong, the wind in front of the palm is pushed forward like a miniture hurricane and causes damage like a weapon.

[flamer]

I thought it was interesting that ZWJ could not use Taiji to stray an Ah Er attack and himself got brought a step in. What's more, ZWJ felt a shortness of breath because of Ah Er's palm.

[CC]

I thought it was interesting that ZWJ could not use Taiji to stray an Ah Er attack and himself got brought a step in. What's more, ZWJ felt a shortness of breath because of Ah Er's palm.

Thats just ZWJ being Mr Sucky Fighter or him being new to Tai Ji.

I suspect the injured Z3F could have diverted the strike using Tai Ji without feeling stuff like shortness of breath.

Actually, you don't even need Tai Ji to divert an incoming blow. e.g. see XF diverting Ding Chun Qiu's strike towards Murong Fu. So maybe it really is ZWJ being sucky rather then being new to Tai Ji.

[flamer]

Haha ZWJ felt the shortness of breath when he felt Ah Er's palm coming, which is surprising given his 9 Yang auto protect and all that. I was just thinking even without Taiji, there is no reason ZWJ can't stray Ah Er's attack. Even less ZWJ himself taking a step in.

I think JY is just trying to make Ah Er look powerful and make the fight significant.

[kyss of the sword]

ah er's palm wind caused ZWJ shortness of breathe when it was launched to show the power of the strike. he had great inner power through not in ZWJ's league, it was like guo jing causing distress to OYF when OYF reduced his force against GJ. OYF was decades ahead on GJ in terms of inner power but he still couldn't treat GJ's inner power as nothing. ZWJ couldn't treat ah er's inner power as nothing either. he had to focus his 9yanagshengong and not rely on auto level.

[CC]

I woudn't say it caused OYF 'distress'. Just that OYF could not afford to ignore it (not everyone is Xu Zhu!!!).

XF could not afford to ignore Zhao Qiansun/Grandpa Tan's (who is also several leagues behind him) incoming palm strike.

But neither OYF or XF felt 'shortness' of breath just from the incoming force!

[flamer]

Yeah as I can remember, the shortness of breath symptom only appears when the opponent's internal is overwhelming, like ZWJ on Xian Yutong. I don't think I remember the same thing happening from a person with considerably lower level being able to do that.

[kyss of the sword]

the shortness of breathe occurs because of the powerful wind force that precedes the palm strike. it can be because of both inner strength and powerful external strength.