True Power of QKDNY

[person135]

As you know, Qian Kun Da Nuo Yi (QKDNY) is Ming Cult's legendary martial arts skill. It gives you special insight into enemy fighting, lets you redirect inner energy and other martial art skills, move your acupuncture points limitlessly around his body (the only other person who was able to this was Ou Yang Feng, and he was not able to do it as quickly and flawlessly like ZWJ), as well as other special tricks. The first person to fully master all seven levels was ZWJ, and with it, he was able to conquer all of Jiang Hu's martial artists.

Many people overlook QKDNY because ZWJ was not as flawless as Guo Jing or Xiao Feng or Yang Guo were with their own martial arts. However, this is only because ZWJ first of all hates fighting. Secondly, he is not an experienced fighter like Guo Jing, Xiao Feng, and Yang Guo are. Therefore, he cannot use his martial arts to his full potential. That said, ZWJ was still the best martial artist in his time period.


QKDNY in the hands of ZWJ doesnt show its true potential. Here's why:

Remember Yang Xiao? He was lucky enough to become Yang Ding Tian's (Ming Cult's Leader b4 ZWJ) favorite student. Therefore, he was lucky enough to learn 2 levels of QKDNY. He practiced that for at least 10 years. With it, he was already very powerful, being able to defeat Ying Tian Zheng as well as beat the group of Ming Cult specialists when they didnt want him as leader. Not only that, he was able to force Cheng Kung into a stalemate while still fighting the six Ming Cult high level specialists AND after taking two hard blows from Cheng Kun. Of course all this was done with many years of practice on only the QKDNY's second level. Note the words many years of practice.

As for ZWJ, he had all seven levels and was able to beat everyone in his time period. However, he did not have even a full day's practice of QKDNY. ZWJ learned QKDYN in a matter of several hours, and afterwards, rarely practiced the skill again.

What if ZWJ did practice his QKDNY. What if he practiced this martial art for several years, just like Yang Guo or Guo Jing practiced their martial arts for several years. ZWJ was just an inexperienced fighter, that's all.

[tape]

You should read all related threads to QKDNY because half your facts are wrong or misleading and that leads to no real debate.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Yes, with all due respect, and without intending to make it sound as though we're giving the cold shoulder to a new member of the Wuxia forum, tape is right. There are a lot of misleading or outright wrong facts. Amongst them,

1) Yang Xiao did not stalemate Cheng Kun at any point in time; he did not even land a single blow on Cheng Kun. Cheng Kun managed to sneak attack him, and then, when Yang Xiao struggled to land a counterblow later, hit him at his 小海 'Little Sea' acupoint, after which Yang Xiao was totally immobilized. This is the sequence of events:

a) Yang Xiao fights the specialists while using QKDNY to stalemate them,
b) Both sides retract their power,
c) At this moment, Cheng Kun strikes each and every single one of them,
d) Yang Xiao tries rather sluggishly to launch a counter-attack,
e) Cheng Kun hits him again at his 'Little Sea' acupoint,
f) Yang Xiao is totally defeated and does nothing more for the rest of the battle (Wei Yixia has some more contributions though).

2) Length of practice is not the main issue in QKDNY; to put it bluntly, success in practicing it lies almost wholly in your internal energy. The difficulty in practicing it lies in its inner power requirement; as the novel states,

The idea is easy in theory, but does not work if you don’t have the means. Every older leader of the Ming sect knows this, but they all felt that if they try hard enough, they would eventually succeed. This is why Zhang WuJi could learn the skill so fast, while many people smarter than he fails. Zhang WuJi simply had enough inner power, while the others do not.

That is why it took so long for Yang Xiao to reach level 2; not because of any intricacy, but because his internal energy was too low (he was knocked out by the Xuanming elders with one blow while they were using only a small portion of their strength). With this in mind, it becomes highly unlikely that continued practice would significantly improve ZWJ's master of QKDNY. QKDNY enabled him to use 100% of his natural strength; further practice wouldn't increase that at all.

3) Ouyang Feng was not able to shift his acupoints at will; what happened was that his training of the fake 9 Ying manual screwed up and inverted all his acupoints. Similarly, I am unable to recall any instance in the novel where it was stated that Zhang Wuji was able to shift his acupoints at will, if at all.

4) It was specifically stated during the Battle at Brightness Peak that the top martial arts theories/techniques of the Central Plains (ie, Liangyi Swordplay in this case) were much more refined than the theories of the Western Regions (ie, Qiankun Danoyi); only, the practitioners of Liangyi Swordplay could only use 20-30% of it, which was the only reason why Zhang Wuji was able to stay alive.

5) As a minor note, Yang Xiao was not Yang Dingtian's student; he was the Guangming Zuoshi (Glorious Left Herald) of the Ming cult, Yang Dingtian's subordinate.

QKDNY definitely is a very amazing skill, but I'm afraid you exaggerate a bit and rely on a number of wrong/misleading statements...

[kyss of the sword]

QKDNY is an amazing skill but it's full power could only be shown because of 9yang shengong. even the creator did not master the seventh level because the ming cult/QKDNY style of inner power was not sufficiently advanced enough. ZWJ did not shift his accupoints but used QKDNY to move his qi to the accupoints when SQS tried to seal them. YX was able to hold his own against green bat and four of the five wanders. QKDNY had it's limitation where you can only redirect inner force equal to your own, you can't redirect inner power superior to you. that is why YX could not redirect the xuan ming elders force.

[muidi]

4) It was specifically stated during the Battle at Brightness Peak that the top martial arts theories/techniques of the Central Plains (ie, Liangyi Swordplay in this case) were much more refined than the theories of the Western Regions (ie, Qiankun Danoyi); only, the practitioners of Liangyi Swordplay could only use 20-30% of it, which was the only reason why Zhang Wuji was able to stay alive.

I think this is a wrong part to state that QKDNY is less refined. First this statement was said by Mie Jue. She was completely biased to the martial arts of the orthodox clans. Any other martial arts is for her automatically evil. Here the part:

E Mei’s Master Mie Jue said to her disciples, “This youngster’s kung fu is very strange, but the four fighters of Kun Lun and Hua Shan have trapped him in terms of techniques. Our righteous kung fu of central plains are broad and deep, much better than the devilish Xi Yu kung fu. The two forms uses four people. The four people occupy eight locations. The front side has eight-times-eight-forsixtyfour moves. The reverse side also has eight-times-eight-for-sixty-four moves. When combined, you have sixty-four-squared, or four thousand and ninety-two different variations. This is simply unrivaled in the world.”

Second, it is questionable whether QKDNY belongs to the devilish kung fu. QKDNY divides Yin and Yang energy to redirect forces. Sounds for me quite orthodox.
She doesn’t know what kind of martial arts ZWJ was using and used “devilish Xi Yu kung fu” to describe his martial arts. Her statement here should not be used to judge QKDNY.
Jin Yong stated (part: battle at Wudang with Ah san, Ah da,….) that QKDNY can create weaknesses in every (flawless) techniques. Thus, this makes QKDNY to one of the most powerful martial arts.
I wonder how it will perform if it is used to fight DG9J.... (ZWJ vs. LWC) :-)

[PJ]

I think this is a wrong part to state that QKDNY is less refined. First this statement was said by Mie Jue. She was completely biased to the martial arts of the orthodox clans. Any other martial arts is for her automatically evil. Here the part:

E Mei’s Master Mie Jue said to her disciples, “This youngster’s kung fu is very strange, but the four fighters of Kun Lun and Hua Shan have trapped him in terms of techniques. Our righteous kung fu of central plains are broad and deep, much better than the devilish Xi Yu kung fu. The two forms uses four people. The four people occupy eight locations. The front side has eight-times-eight-forsixtyfour moves. The reverse side also has eight-times-eight-for-sixty-four moves. When combined, you have sixty-four-squared, or four thousand and ninety-two different variations. This is simply unrivaled in the world.”

Miejue did say that, but that's not the evidence Ren Wo Xing was pulling from. There's a quote from the narrator stating that the highest principles of Chinese martial arts are superior to the highest principles of Western Region, specifically comparing the art of Liangyi and Qiankun Danuoyi head to head. Here is the quote from Jin Yong:

华山，昆仑两派的正反两仪刀剑之术，是从中国固有的河图洛书，以及伏羲文王的八卦方位中推演而得，其奥妙精 微之处，若能深研到极致，比之西域的乾坤大挪移实有过之而无不及

[kyss of the sword]

Miejue did say that, but that's not the evidence Ren Wo Xing was pulling from. There's a quote from the narrator stating that the highest principles of Chinese martial arts are superior to the highest principles of Western Region, specifically comparing the art of Liangyi and Qiankun Danuoyi head to head. Here is the quote from Jin Yong:

华山，昆仑两派的正反两仪刀剑之术，是从中国固有的河图洛书，以及伏羲文王的八卦方位中推演而得，其奥妙精 微之处，若能深研到极致，比之西域的乾坤大挪移实有过之而无不及

you could say jin yong was biased in favor of chinese kung fu but he did say that. QKDNY is sort of a raw skill that is rooted in the basics of martial arts and contains all the basic theories of all martial arts. therefore the user can comprehend practically all martial arts styles and counter them. other then 9yin zhenjing there are no skills in the central plains that can do that. when jin yong stated the principles of the skill are higher, he may be referring to Taoist principles the liangyi formation is based on against the Zoroastrian theories of Persia.

[PJ]

you could say jin yong was biased in favor of chinese kung fu but he did say that. QKDNY is sort of a raw skill that is rooted in the basics of martial arts and contains all the basic theories of all martial arts. therefore the user can comprehend practically all martial arts styles and counter them. other then 9yin zhenjing there are no skills in the central plains that can do that. when jin yong stated the principles of the skill are higher, he may be referring to Taoist principles the liangyi formation is based on against the Zoroastrian theories of Persia.

Basically, as we saw in the case of Zhang Wuji, he couldn't even find an opportunity to use Qiankun Danuoyi when Liangyi was employed by his opponents. That's the greatness of the advanced philosophies of Chinese martial arts.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Miejue did say that, but that's not the evidence Ren Wo Xing was pulling from. There's a quote from the narrator stating that the highest principles of Chinese martial arts are superior to the highest principles of Western Region, specifically comparing the art of Liangyi and Qiankun Danuoyi head to head. Here is the quote from Jin Yong:

华山，昆仑两派的正反两仪刀剑之术，是从中国固有的河图洛书，以及伏羲文王的八卦方位中推演而得，其奥妙精 微之处，若能深研到极致，比之西域的乾坤大挪移实有过之而无不及

Yes, this is the line I was referring to. To provide a translation to those who do not read Chinese,

"The Forward and Reverse Liangyi Swordplay techniques of Mt. Huashan and Mt. Kunlun are developed from the Eight Diagrams positions of Fuxi and King Wen extrapolated from the 'Luo river diagrams' and constitute some of China's most intrinsic philosophies. When deeply studied and mastered, without a question their profundity and level of refinement goes beyond that of the Qiankun Danoyi of the Western Regions."

He's not discussing Zoroastrianism; he states that they are superior to QKDNY in specific.

[Trinie]

I was wondering if QKDNY is able to defeat Jiu Yin Zhen Jing?? My mom claims that it can(and yes she has read the novels) since the author of Jiu Yin Zhen Jing may not have seen QKDNY so he may not have thought of methods to defeat it. What do you guys think though? I am still wondering about this....

[Ken Cheng]

I was wondering if QKDNY is able to defeat Jiu Yin Zhen Jing?? My mom claims that it can(and yes she has read the novels) since the author of Jiu Yin Zhen Jing may not have seen QKDNY so he may not have thought of methods to defeat it. What do you guys think though? I am still wondering about this....

It's hard to say, but I theorize that the 9 Yum Jen Ging can overcome the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee and might *possibly* have been designed with that purpose in mind. Given that Wong Seung's enemies were the Ming Cult, it's very likely (though not certain) that he encountered a Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee user. If that's the case, than perhaps the 9 Yum Jen Ging was designed specifically to overcome Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee. The 9 Yum Jen Ging's capacity to help its user develop vast amounts of inner power in a relatively short time seems aimed at exploiting Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee's weakness of being useless against opponents with greater inner power.

Not that any of this was made explicit by Jin Yong, but as speculation goes, it's not wildly unreasonable.

[pannonian]

It's hard to say, but I theorize that the 9 Yum Jen Ging can overcome the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee and might *possibly* have been designed with that purpose in mind. Given that Wong Seung's enemies were the Ming Cult, it's very likely (though not certain) that he encountered a Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee user. If that's the case, than perhaps the 9 Yum Jen Ging was designed specifically to overcome Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee. The 9 Yum Jen Ging's capacity to help its user develop vast amounts of inner power in a relatively short time seems aimed at exploiting Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee's weakness of being useless against opponents with greater inner power.

Not that any of this was made explicit by Jin Yong, but as speculation goes, it's not wildly unreasonable.

Don't know about 9 yin itself, but Guo Jing should have an ideal set of techniques to counter QKDNY. Big Dipper formation to help him identity flaws in the opponent's positioning and minimise his own, 9 yin internal to give him a big internal reserve, Vacant Fists as a technique that uses little to no energy, thus giving QKDNY nothing to manipulate, 18 Dragon Subduing Palms to direct or retract energy at will, L/R to use 2 techniques simultaneously. All of them were intrinsically Daoist theories, so perhaps 9 yin might have similar ideas.

[person135]

heh well i just based that on what i saw in the TV series

[PJ]

In terms of the art, I would think 9 Yin is superior to Qiankun Danuoyi. Here's why:

We already established that Bagua/Liangyi/Sixiang > Qiankun Danuoyi. Jin Yong said so.

In LOCH, Huang Yaoshi was a master of Bagua. In fact it's said that when he used Bagua in conjunction with his other martial arts, it's the highest level he's capable of. And yet, Huang Yaoshi longed for 9 Yin, which must mean it's > Bagua. So I would think that 9 Yin > 8 Gua (Eight Trigram) > Qiankun Danuoyi, in terms of the art.

OF course, it's just saying something about the art, not the person.

[Trinie]

It's hard to say, but I theorize that the 9 Yum Jen Ging can overcome the Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee and might *possibly* have been designed with that purpose in mind. Given that Wong Seung's enemies were the Ming Cult, it's very likely (though not certain) that he encountered a Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee user. If that's the case, than perhaps the 9 Yum Jen Ging was designed specifically to overcome Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee. The 9 Yum Jen Ging's capacity to help its user develop vast amounts of inner power in a relatively short time seems aimed at exploiting Keen Kwun Dai Loi Yee's weakness of being useless against opponents with greater inner power.

Not that any of this was made explicit by Jin Yong, but as speculation goes, it's not wildly unreasonable.

Yea, it is still hard to say because keep in mind that not many people were able to reach really high levels of QKDNY. I think even Yang Xiao only reached level 2 while Yang Ding Tian only reached like level 4 at most right?? Also, wasn't only the leader of the Ming cult allowed to learn and practice QKDNY?? If that is the case, then I don't think Wong Seung would have seen much of QKDNY. If he did, then maybe the levels that he saw were not that high... But who knows since I don't think 9 Yang Zhen Jing was ever used against QKDNY.... or was it??

[Ren Wo Xing]

It's difficult to say which art is 'superior', in that they each have their own strengths and in fact are not mutually exclusive; 9 Yin builds up one's internal energy, while QKDNY allows one to unbind and release all one's energy at all times. QKDNY allows one to redirect opponents' energies with ease (which 9 Yin doesn't appear to be able to do), while 9 Yin actually includes attacking/combat techniques (which QKDNY does not possess)...

But based on the underlying philosophy, I would probably say that 9 Yin > QKDNY.

[Trinie]

It's difficult to say which art is 'superior', in that they each have their own strengths and in fact are not mutually exclusive; 9 Yin builds up one's internal energy, while QKDNY allows one to unbind and release all one's energy at all times. QKDNY allows one to redirect opponents' energies with ease (which 9 Yin doesn't appear to be able to do), while 9 Yin actually includes attacking/combat techniques (which QKDNY does not possess)...

But based on the underlying philosophy, I would probably say that 9 Yin > QKDNY.

Thanks for the info and again, it is still hard to say... What about 9 Yang Zhen Jing??? Is that exclusive to QKDNY???

[Ren Wo Xing]

9 Yang? Of course not...I mean, Zhang Wuji used both, after all...9 Yang overlaps even less with QKDNY, which is why ZWJ with 9Yang+QKDNY was such a dangerous guy.

[Trinie]

9 Yang? Of course not...I mean, Zhang Wuji used both, after all...9 Yang overlaps even less with QKDNY, which is why ZWJ with 9Yang+QKDNY was such a dangerous guy.

Thanks for the info. However, I am kind of confused now since I thought 9 yang complimented QKDNY because if ZWJ did not know 9 Yang, I don't think he would have been able to reach the 7th level of QKDNY.

[Dennis Chen]

QKNDY+Taiji+9Yang: a triangle to rule them all.