Theory regarding martial arts level of LOCH/ROCH Greats

[tape]

I forgot about XZ vs DCQ, I was thinking about him against JMZ. Yes, I don't get at all why he was fighting him for so long. It doesn't make any sense.

And yes there are heaps of reasons why people underperform, but we are trying to gauge their actual level so it'd be more helpful when there are no outside variables such as eagles, Huang Rong, etc. With Ci'en JY did not mention any distractions and it still took a day -- which I take it to mean he was very close in level, and improved his martial arts as GWM did.

Against Ah Er, if I remember correctly, they matched palms maybe two three times and then Wuji destroyed him. I don't see any inconsistency there. Against Ah Da, he was fighting an expert martial artist specializing in swords, armed with the Heaven Sword while he never used swords before. I think that's enough to warrant him taking a bit longer to defeat him, and even then it was rather quick and he had no chance of losing. It was just a matter of how many minutes it would take.

The XZ example does indeed have me stumped though.

[flamer]

This is indeed an interesting passage. Certainly raised my eyebrows before. After some discussion, Hanky Panky (aka Black Night Sea) convinced me that Yideng was probably referring to the type of abundant energy, not the overall abundance of the energy. Here is that discussion: http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showpost...6&postcount=10

I rather think the emphasis is

却也无这等充沛的内力

ie, abundant raw energy, instead of a specific nature of internal energy that gets stronger.

Regardless of what specifically he was referring to, it still shows Yideng thought he was weaker in old age than he was before.

[flamer]

I forgot about XZ vs DCQ, I was thinking about him against JMZ. Yes, I don't get at all why he was fighting him for so long. It doesn't make any sense.

And yes there are heaps of reasons why people underperform, but we are trying to gauge their actual level so it'd be more helpful when there are no outside variables such as eagles, Huang Rong, etc. With Ci'en JY did not mention any distractions and it still took a day -- which I take it to mean he was very close in level, and improved his martial arts as GWM did.

Against Ah Er, if I remember correctly, they matched palms maybe two three times and then Wuji destroyed him. I don't see any inconsistency there. Against Ah Da, he was fighting an expert martial artist specializing in swords, armed with the Heaven Sword while he never used swords before. I think that's enough to warrant him taking a bit longer to defeat him, and even then it was rather quick and he had no chance of losing. It was just a matter of how many minutes it would take.

The XZ example does indeed have me stumped though.

Yes, Ah Er was unwise to compete internal energy head-on with ZWJ which is sure to end in quick defeat.

ZWJ was capable of fighting Fang Dongbai bare-handed but thought of using a sword a safer option, obviously. Hence he probably wasn't disadvantaged with the Taiji Sword option. He will only take longer without the sword.

GWM fighting Ci En for a day only shows that it is no surprise that HYS/YD managed to APPEAR to hold on to GWM in that brief fight.

I'm glad you like the XZ example.

[PJ]

I rather think the emphasis is

却也无这等充沛的内力

ie, abundant raw energy, instead of a specific nature of internal energy that gets stronger.

Regardless of what specifically he was referring to, it still shows Yideng thought he was weaker in old age than he was before.

This is actually why I believe Yideng was referring to the type of internal energy rather than the amount. You'll recall that in Huang Yaoshi's case, it was mentioned that as he aged, his physical strength goes down BUT his internal energy goes up. The same pattern should apply to Yideng. Therefore, when Yideng referenced his internal energy going down with age, it's more likely that he wasn't referring to the amount of internal energy, but rather: "the kind of [aggressive] inner strength that can get stronger by the minute" (which makes sense would decline with age).

[tape]

GWM fighting Ci En for a day only shows that it is no surprise that HYS/YD managed to APPEAR to hold on to GWM in that brief fight.

Alternatively it could mean that Ci'en improved, the Greats improved, but just not as much as GWM improved, which makes sense as he is younger and he did not fully master his choice of skill yet.

[flamer]

This is actually why I believe Yideng was referring to the type of internal energy rather than the amount. You'll recall that in Huang Yaoshi's case, it was mentioned that as he aged, his physical strength goes down BUT his internal energy goes up. The same pattern should apply to Yideng. Therefore, when Yideng referenced his internal energy going down with age, it's more likely that he wasn't referring to the amount of internal energy, but rather: "the kind of [aggressive] inner strength that can get stronger by the minute" (which makes sense would decline with age).

I see, perhaps its more of a switch from more abundant and raw internal energy to a more refined type, like commonly seen in older experts.

[flamer]

Alternatively it could mean that Ci'en improved, the Greats improved, but just not as much as GWM improved, which makes sense as he is younger and he did not fully master his choice of skill yet.

It can mean both ways correct but with all the things I have posted before, I believe it shows that other Greats did not keep up with GWM and is no surprise they seemingly held on.

[PJ]

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[flamer]

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What it is really is beside the point I was trying to make. It was just the Yideng clearly referred the current self to be weaker than what was before.

[PJ]

I see, perhaps its more of a switch from more abundant and raw internal energy to a more refined type, like commonly seen in older experts.

Yes, I believe this is the case.

It was just the Yideng clearly referred the current self to be weaker than what was before.

He did NOT say that he was overall weaker. He only said that with age, he had become weaker in terms of whatever he was referring to, which I believe is the kind of internal energy that can last for a long time and getting stronger all the time. I do not believe this decline in any way reflects his overall effectiveness.

[flamer]

He did NOT say that he was overall weaker. He only said that with age, he had become weaker in terms of whatever he was referring to, which I believe is the kind of internal energy that can last for a long time and getting stronger all the time. I do not believe this decline in any way reflects his overall effectiveness.

Yes I was trying to say he saw some sort of de-provement (whatever he was referring to) with age.

[flamer]

Alternatively it could mean that Ci'en improved, the Greats improved, but just not as much as GWM improved, which makes sense as he is younger and he did not fully master his choice of skill yet.

I was reading the part on Greats vs GWM again. Does it really surprise you that GWM's power is a lot higher than ZBT/YD?

周伯通已觉出对方劲力大得异乎寻常，实是从所未遇。他生性好武，只要知道谁有一技
之长，便要缠着过招较量，一生大战小斗，不知会过多少江湖好手，但如法王所发这般巨
力，却是见所未见，闻所未闻，一时不明是何门道。

黄蓉在旁瞧着，但见一灯大师头顶白气氤氲，渐聚渐浓，便似
蒸笼一般，显是正在运转内劲，深恐他年迈力衰，不敌法王

I found that the age issue was brought up several times Post 16.

[person135]

does the amount of physical strength affect the amount of internal energy you can exert in your move? I think it does

[flamer]

does the amount of physical strength affect the amount of internal energy you can exert in your move? I think it does

I think that is very limited. Many people with great internal energy are rather skinny.

[tape]

I was reading the part on Greats vs GWM again. Does it really surprise you that GWM's power is a lot higher than ZBT/YD?

周伯通已觉出对方劲力大得异乎寻常，实是从所未遇。他生性好武，只要知道谁有一技
之长，便要缠着过招较量，一生大战小斗，不知会过多少江湖好手，但如法王所发这般巨
力，却是见所未见，闻所未闻，一时不明是何门道。

黄蓉在旁瞧着，但见一灯大师头顶白气氤氲，渐聚渐浓，便似
蒸笼一般，显是正在运转内劲，深恐他年迈力衰，不敌法王

I found that the age issue was brought up several times Post 16.

Power as in striking power, and ability to do damage no I'm not that surprised. But in terms of finger strength or ability to transmit power over long distances, other things that are a factor I don't think he is necessarily that much superior.

With that said, HYS was able to neutralize Yang Guo's Sad Palms with his Divine Snap, and we know Yang Guo is not inferior to GWM in any way, power or technique wise. So even if GWM is more powerful, he is not THAT much more so in terms of power/energy, which is why I believe HYS had to have improved as Wheelie DEFINITELY improved and he was able to keep pace power wise with Yang guo who is superior to GWM.

[PJ]

Wheelie

Nice new moniker

[flamer]

Power as in striking power, and ability to do damage no I'm not that surprised. But in terms of finger strength or ability to transmit power over long distances, other things that are a factor I don't think he is necessarily that much superior.

With that said, HYS was able to neutralize Yang Guo's Sad Palms with his Divine Snap, and we know Yang Guo is not inferior to GWM in any way, power or technique wise. So even if GWM is more powerful, he is not THAT much more so in terms of power/energy, which is why I believe HYS had to have improved as Wheelie DEFINITELY improved and he was able to keep pace power wise with Yang guo who is superior to GWM.

Ha, and the doubling of power issue can easily be referring to striking and damaging power.

As for the appearance of being equal, I made the suggestion many times that for each short short encounter, there is NO WAY YG/GWM can clearly show their superiority.

[tape]

Yang Guo and Wheelie fought for very few stances during the end and Wheelie already knew he was going to lose as Yang Guo was gaining the upperhand quickly. The discrepancy between them was probably no more than 10%, yet it manifested very swiftly. If you claim the greats are 20% or more weaker, then they should have been toast much quicker, especially against Yang Guo who is stronger than Wheelie even without Sad Palms.

[flamer]

Yang Guo and Wheelie fought for very few stances during the end and Wheelie already knew he was going to lose as Yang Guo was gaining the upperhand quickly. The discrepancy between them was probably no more than 10%, yet it manifested very swiftly. If you claim the greats are 20% or more weaker, then they should have been toast much quicker, especially against Yang Guo who is stronger than Wheelie even without Sad Palms.

YG and GWM fought for hundreds of stances.

这时杨过单手独臂，已与法王的铜铁双轮拆到二百招以上。两人的武功家数截然不同，
但均是愈斗力气愈长，轮影掌风，笼盖了高台之顶，台脚下冲上来的黑烟直熏入三人眼中。
杨过虽无兵刃，却始终不落下风。法王激斗中觉得高台微微摇晃，心知台脚为火焚毁，顷刻
间便要倒塌，那时势必和杨过、郭襄同归于尽；又见杨过掌法越变越奇，再斗百余招只怕便
要为他所制

[tape]

Do you think it was a fluke that YG won extremely quickly with Sad Palms later on then?