GWM....>> pre-16 Yang Guo with HIS?

[tape]

Yang Guo with his HIS was pretty invincible as far as his fighting record goes. We recently discussed whether he'd beat the older Greats or not.

After GWM was beat handily, it was said he wasn't willing to step into the Central Plains again until he was sure he could beat Yang Guo/XLN together. Since he witnessed Yang Guo's power first hand, he should be an excellent judge of it. So for him to come back, that suggests he had far exceeded Yang Guo's previous level, because he isn't so dumb as to assume Yang Guo wouldn't improve at all, and he is now confident of defeating them two together.

Now for GWM to feel that confident, he must have far exceded pre-16 HIS Yang Guo + XLN because he is a wimp at heart. Without an advantage he wouldn't be so sure of himself.

For him to have improved THAT much, and yet only be marginally better than Yideng, does this imply that the age versus improvement thing doesn't hold much weight? Yideng would have had to improve a huge, huge amount in order to keep up also, as GWM must have like doubled his fighting abilities roughly. (I'm not just saying inner power, since we know that for a fact, but rather abilities as well since he has to far exceed Pre-16 HIS Yang Guo (whom he was much inferior to 16 years ago) + XLN, both of whom he has to account for some improvement.

[PJ]

flamer will love this

[tape]

I wasn't hoping anyone in particular would read it

[tape]

And clearly it was an evil scheme for me to get everybody to admit Yang Guo pre-16 >> all the other Greats, then bam throw this quote out there and win age vs improvement !

[Yeung Gor]

YG with Sad Palms is much stronger than one with HIS

[flamer]

3 things:

1) YG was probably not Pre 16 Great level yet. It was just the HIS making a huge boost. In terms of comparing fights, YG may draw with Greats but in terms of real martial arts level (ie weaponless), he is still inferior which shows when he discarded his HIS in later years as he felt he didn't need the HIS to further his level.

2) The plateau effect still holds. GWM having DOUBLED his power can confidently see there is no way YG could have improved that much. But he did.

3) Yideng doesn't have to improve by a huge or comparable amount as he fought for a very short time. An example I've presented many times is the Huang Rong vs OYF example that even HR could stay equal for DOZENS of stances. What surprise is there for Yideng to hold for hundreds of stances against someone whose difference is much less than OYF/HR?

[Ken Cheng]

3) Yideng doesn't have to improve by a huge or comparable amount as he fought for a very short time. An example I've presented many times is the Huang Rong vs OYF example that even HR could stay equal for DOZENS of stances. What surprise is there for Yideng to hold for hundreds of stances against someone whose difference is much less than OYF/HR?

I think the problem is that for the most part, we see that there are the Greats...and then, there's everybody else. The Greats might fight each other for thousands of strokes without any side gaining any notable advantage, but against people such as Lee Mok Sau, Mui Chiu Fung, Yau Chui Gei, etc., who are NOT weak, the Greats usually wreck them in just a stroke or two.

[Dennis Chen]

I think JLGS was just hoping, or rather betting, on the fact that achieving the 13th(?) level of Dragon Elephant Prana would be able to defeat Yang Guo.

[Exodus]

unfortunately he didn't know that YG had invented sad palm and that he would get so powerful otherwise GWM wouldn't dare to challenge YG. He should be happy to be defeated by the great condor hero...

[Ren Ying Ying]

unfortunately he didn't know that YG had invented sad palm and that he would get so powerful otherwise GWM wouldn't dare to challenge YG. He should be happy to be defeated by the great condor hero...

poor guy also didn't realize that JY set him out to be the villain, not the hero

[Exodus]

poor guy also didn't realize that JY set him out to be the villain, not the hero

LOL JY should write a version of "what if" ala Marvel comics...

[Ken Cheng]

The Golden Wheel Monk was the key warrior of the Mongol Empire. Mongke and Kublai charged him with killing Gwok Jing, not Yeung Gor. If anything, the Golden Wheel Monk should have spent the intervening time preparing to fight Gwok Jing.

[Exodus]

The Golden Wheel Monk was the key warrior of the Mongol Empire. Mongke and Kublai charged him with killing Gwok Jing, not Yeung Gor. If anything, the Golden Wheel Monk should have spent the intervening time preparing to fight Gwok Jing.

but the wanted to be the greatest fighter and to be that he had too beat YG
or maybe he was just too afraid to meet GJ head on.

[Ken Cheng]

but the wanted to be the greatest fighter and to be that he had too beat YG
or maybe he was just too afraid to meet GJ head on.

As far as the Golden Wheel Monk was concerned, Yeung Gor had disappeared from wulin sixteen years earlier. For all the monk knew, Yeung Gor could have succumbed at last to his Passion Flower poisoning. The monk had no idea that Wong Yung had found a cure for Yeung Gor, or that this new "Divine Condor Hero" was Yeung Gor (in fact, I don't think the Golden Wheel Monk even knew of the existence of such a figure until he met him).

The Golden Wheel Monk's mission during all those years remained the same: kill Gwok Jing, defeat his allies, and conquer Seung Yeung. Getting Yeung Gor would be a bonus.

[pannonian]

I think the problem is that for the most part, we see that there are the Greats...and then, there's everybody else. The Greats might fight each other for thousands of strokes without any side gaining any notable advantage, but against people such as Lee Mok Sau, Mui Chiu Fung, Yau Chui Gei, etc., who are NOT weak, the Greats usually wreck them in just a stroke or two.

From the beginning of ROCH, when Ouyang Feng looked for Yang Guo in the inn, and encountered Ke Zhen E, Huang Rong and Guo Jing. Ke Zhen E has been knocked off the roof, presumably in one stance, and caught by Guo Jing on the ground. Guo Jing has yet to enter the fight. ROCH chapter 2:

At the time, Huang Rong was fighting with her palms, the palms like a
flying dance. It has been ten years since she has seen her old enemy,
and right now they were fighting ferociously. Her internal energy has
improved tremendously over the last few years, her internal energy is
now very forceful, the palms she were using were changing mysteriously
and cleverly; after ten moves, Ouyang Feng didn’t gain any advantage.

[pannonian]

As far as the Golden Wheel Monk was concerned, Yeung Gor had disappeared from wulin sixteen years earlier. For all the monk knew, Yeung Gor could have succumbed at last to his Passion Flower poisoning. The monk had no idea that Wong Yung had found a cure for Yeung Gor, or that this new "Divine Condor Hero" was Yeung Gor (in fact, I don't think the Golden Wheel Monk even knew of the existence of such a figure until he met him).

The Golden Wheel Monk's mission during all those years remained the same: kill Gwok Jing, defeat his allies, and conquer Seung Yeung. Getting Yeung Gor would be a bonus.

ROCH chapter 37:

That year when he was defeated by Yang Guo
and Xiao Longnu’s swords, it was the biggest defeat and insult in his
whole life, so he trained relentlessly and now when the Khan is
preparing to invade the south, he took this opportunity to come south
and seek the Yang-Long couple for a re-match, hoping to avenge his
bitter defeat.

GWM might not have known about the Divine Eagle, but Guo Xiang's description contained other information. From earlier in chapter 37:

The monk said, “What does that person look like, maybe I’ve met him
before and can tell you where he is.”

Guo Xiang thought this was not a bad idea and said, “You might not know
him. He’s a one-armed young man. He might be with a large eagle or he
might be alone.”

That monk was actually Jinlun Fawang (Golden Wheel Monk) and he realized
she was talking about Yang Guo. His heart missed a beat but he appeared
normal, saying, “Ah, you’re looking for someone named Yang Guo, right?”

[PJ]

An example I've presented many times is the Huang Rong vs OYF example that even HR could stay equal for DOZENS of stances.

in which chapter did this take place?

[flamer]

in which chapter did this take place?

Here is the passage in Chapter 3 (i think)

这时屋顶上黄蓉双掌飞舞，已与这十余年不见的老对头斗得甚是激烈。她这些年来武功
大进，内力强劲，出掌更是变化奥妙，十余招中，欧阳锋竟丝毫占不到便宜。

[Han Solo]

PJ,

Read post 15 by pannonian. Although, it is ten not dozens of moves.

Han Solo

[PJ]

Here is the passage in Chapter 3 (i think)

这时屋顶上黄蓉双掌飞舞，已与这十余年不见的老对头斗得甚是激烈。她这些年来武功
大进，内力强劲，出掌更是变化奥妙，十余招中，欧阳锋竟丝毫占不到便宜。

Just to let you know, it's TEN moves, not tens of moves. After 10 moves, Ouyang went into defensive mode while devoting his mind to pondering who he was, and Huang Rong wasn't able to gain an advantage, so it wasn't "equal" after 10 moves.

Still impressive of Huang Rong, but it's only 10 moves.