The Gwok Jing Glorification Thread

[pannonian]

What is MO ?

Modus operandi

[timeless]

Yang Guo was the greatest classical xia of the LOCH-ROCH era, but Guo Jing surpassed that as the greatest ying xiong of the era, paralleling Genghis Khan as the exemplar of his society's ideals, with the achievements to match. Yang Guo was probably the pinnacle of what wulin could aspire to be, but Guo Jing's heroism could only find parallels in figures that far transcended wulin.

I urge you to read LOCH ASAP, particularly the passage in Samarkand where he is angered by the cruelty of the Mongols. All the discussion about Guo Jing's martial skills becomes irrelevant when set against that.

That comparison only brings us to think of someone before both their time, who was not only the Daxia of all Daxias, the Yingxiong of all Yingxiongs, do i even have to spell out a big Ta-dah as to who that greatest Daxia/Hero was...

Guojing who was assimilated as one of the Mongol's own and who owed much of who he was thanks to them, did the right thing to speak out against cruelties as righteousness demands it. I am sure any of the Protagonist would do the same on cruelties. It is more his unwavering duty and committment to the safeguard of his country that earns him the title of a hero than anything else.

[jiang bao]

That comparison only brings us to think of someone before both their time, who was not only the Daxia of all Daxias, the Yingxiong of all Yingxiongs, do i even have to spell out a big Ta-dah as to who that greatest Daxia/Hero was...

Guojing who was assimilated as one of the Mongol's own and who owed much of who he was thanks to them, did the right thing to speak out against cruelties as righteousness demands it. I am sure any of the Protagonist would do the same on cruelties. It is more his unwavering duty and committment to the safeguard of his country that earns him the title of a hero than anything else.

It was the greatest duty of being a xia ("xia zhi da zhe") that GJ sought to personify. The GJ of ROCH, there's nothing to criticize. He was a cool guy there.

Combine LOCH and ROCH, and you have a different story.

[Ken Cheng]

The scene in mid-ROCH wherein Gwok Jing singlehandedly held off the Mongol army for a few moments while scores of refugees fled into the safety behind Seung Yeung Fortress' gates is up there with the most iconic heroic moments in wuxia. In fact, I'd rate it as a personal favorite.

[tape]

It was the greatest duty of being a xia ("xia zhi da zhe") that GJ sought to personify. The GJ of ROCH, there's nothing to criticize. He was a cool guy there.

Combine LOCH and ROCH, and you have a different story.

Xiao Feng fought long and hard and gave up his own life to protect the people who treated him like a dog and judged him purely on bloodline rather than what he worked to achieve for the past 30 years. He's pretty heroic himself.

As for the Guo Jing of ROCH, he was pretty much perfect except for so stubbornly not letting YG marry XLN. He clung on ideals rather annoyingly, and it was surprising that Huang Rong agreed with him and believed it was wrong too. You would expect her to realize nothing is wrong with it except for customs and traditions based on an opinion (Confucius I suppose). She probably wouldn't have cared if she wasn't married to him, but it shows that being married to a guy can change your view completely, especially considering she was raised by someone like Huang Yaoshi.

It was never really addressed when Guo Jing reached the epiphany that it wasn't a bad thing that they got married. Kind of lame to suddenly accept and embrace it just because their martial arts reached an awesome level and saved your *** a few times. If Yang Guo had crappy martial arts and didn't amount to the hero that he became, Guo Jing would never have accepted the marriage.

[Ken Cheng]

It was surprising that Huang Rong agreed with him and believed it was wrong too. You would expect her to realize nothing is wrong with it except for customs and traditions based on an opinion (Confucius I suppose). She probably wouldn't have cared if she wasn't married to him, but it shows that being married to a guy can change your view completely, especially considering she was raised by someone like Huang Yaoshi.

I don't think Wong Yung objected to it because she had any problems with the concept in principle, but as a *pragmatist*, she understood that Yeung Gor would get himself into all kinds of trouble if he insisted upon doing this. Wong Yung personally didn't think there was anything wrong with it, perhaps, but she wasn't so naive as to believe that the rest of the world would be all right with it. Out of concern for Yeung Gor's future, she was wary of his pursuing this route. It was definitely not out of adherence to an ethical perspective she never held.

It was never really addressed when Guo Jing reached the epiphany that it wasn't a bad thing that they got married. Kind of lame to suddenly accept and embrace it just because their martial arts reached an awesome level and saved your *** a few times. If Yang Guo had crappy martial arts and didn't amount to the hero that he became, Guo Jing would never have accepted the marriage.

I don't think it was so much that. By the time Gwok Jing saw Yeung Gor again, he'd had quite a bit of time to think about it. Remember: Gwok Jing is *slow*, but he's not truly stupid. It took him a while to figure it out, but once he did, he totally got it. It's like the way he approaches martial arts: slow at first, but really gets it later. Very much in character.

[person135]

yeah XF had it much worse. I feel bad for XF. Lets make a XF glorification thread

[tape]

I don't think Wong Yung objected to it because she had any problems with the concept in principle, but as a *pragmatist*, she understood that Yeung Gor would get himself into all kinds of trouble if he insisted upon doing this. Wong Yung personally didn't think there was anything wrong with it, perhaps, but she wasn't so naive as to believe that the rest of the world would be all right with it. Out of concern for Yeung Gor's future, she was wary of his pursuing this route. It was definitely not out of adherence to an ethical perspective she never held.



I don't think it was so much that. By the time Gwok Jing saw Yeung Gor again, he'd had quite a bit of time to think about it. Remember: Gwok Jing is *slow*, but he's not truly stupid. It took him a while to figure it out, but once he did, he totally got it. It's like the way he approaches martial arts: slow at first, but really gets it later. Very much in character.

While it was concern for Yang Guo's reputation in the world that she was primarily concerned about, she still had thoughts about morals, character, and judgment. Here's a couple of passages:

"Though the two slept in the same room, they kept their respect. Huang Rong stood in the courtyard, she felt that the actions of these two were greatly different to others, it really was difficult to discuss their rights and wrongs. "


"It wouldn’t matter whether Yang Guo was going to become her son in law or not, she just hoped that his character and morals would be perfect, so she said, “What about Guo’er? Others will look down on him as well.” "


I agree with you in that respect, but I'm just surprised she has any misgivings about character and morals. The Huang Rong of LOCH would not give this a second thought, and would most likely argue herself on why this is even considered wrong in the first place.


About the other point, though I do think time helped Guo Jing accept it, I also strongly believe it's all the heroics and life saving actions that Yang Guo did that let him accept it. He's the stubborn old fashioned kind of guy that thinks its definitely wrong, and only their actions allowed him to realize that not all people who commit an act like that are evil scoundrels. So I stand by the fact that if Yang Guo did not reach a high level of martial arts capable of being the hero that he became, Guo Jing would still have looked at the couple with shame.

[Ken Cheng]

While it was concern for Yang Guo's reputation in the world that she was primarily concerned about, she still had thoughts about morals, character, and judgment.

I think that was more due to Yeung Gor being Yeung Hong's son than anything directly to do with Little Dragon Girl. The relationship was one more thing that was strange about Yeung Gor, but Wong Yung's main hang-up was that Yeung Gor was Yeung Hong's son.

[Ken Cheng]

About the other point, though I do think time helped Guo Jing accept it, I also strongly believe it's all the heroics and life saving actions that Yang Guo did that let him accept it. He's the stubborn old fashioned kind of guy that thinks its definitely wrong, and only their actions allowed him to realize that not all people who commit an act like that are evil scoundrels. So I stand by the fact that if Yang Guo did not reach a high level of martial arts capable of being the hero that he became, Guo Jing would still have looked at the couple with shame.

It wasn't Yeung Gor's martial arts that convinced Gwok Jing, it was Yeung Gor's heroic actions and instincts. If Yeung Gor's martial arts were no better than the Mo Brothers', but he nevertheless fought bravely against the Mongolians, Gwok Jing would have come around on the whole Little Dragon Girl thing anyway.

[augster123]

The scene in mid-ROCH wherein Gwok Jing singlehandedly held off the Mongol army for a few moments while scores of refugees fled into the safety behind Seung Yeung Fortress' gates is up there with the most iconic heroic moments in wuxia. In fact, I'd rate it as a personal favorite.

agreed. the arrow battle with GWM was uber way to wrap things up for that scene.

i've also enjoyed the "TVB add-on?" fight scene where he easily takes on Huo Du + Da ErBa by himself to save YG in the forest. he totally needed more action scenes, being the last elite XL18Z user.

some possible add-on scene ideas like:

3 mongol mercs + those 8 first-rate mongolian wrestlers vs. GJ

or

GSZ + FYW+ LMC + HD + DEB vs GJ (both fight scenes choreographed using TVB '80s standard) would be very entertaining and highly glorifying for GJ as well. GJ was that good at those points of the novel; a pity indeed.

[tape]

It wasn't Yeung Gor's martial arts that convinced Gwok Jing, it was Yeung Gor's heroic actions and instincts. If Yeung Gor's martial arts were no better than the Mo Brothers', but he nevertheless fought bravely against the Mongolians, Gwok Jing would have come around on the whole Little Dragon Girl thing anyway.

I guess we have to agree to disagree then.

I don't think he could have done enough with Wu brother level martial arts to impress Guo Jing enough for him to be accepted. It's kind of like celebrities doing charity, or a rich guy with billions donating billions to charity. They can just do *that* much more, and people seem them as more generous than anyone else and praise them more. Yang Guo is in a position to get his way of life accepted because he has the power to influence others through his heroic actions which in turn are possible by his martial arts.

A rich/powerful man wearing jeans and a tshirt to a board meeting or giving a speech will still be taken seriously by the public. Try doing that if you're some random unknown, even if in your personal life you are just as smart, generous, and intelligent as the other man.

[Ken Cheng]

I guess we have to agree to disagree then.

I don't think he could have done enough with Wu brother level martial arts to impress Guo Jing enough for him to be accepted. It's kind of like celebrities doing charity, or a rich guy with billions donating billions to charity. They can just do *that* much more, and people seem them as more generous than anyone else and praise them more. Yang Guo is in a position to get his way of life accepted because he has the power to influence others through his heroic actions which in turn are possible by his martial arts.

A rich/powerful man wearing jeans and a tshirt to a board meeting or giving a speech will still be taken seriously by the public. Try doing that if you're some random unknown, even if in your personal life you are just as smart, generous, and intelligent as the other man.

This is where Gwok Jing is different from most people, and since this is the Gwok Jing Glorification Thread, we might as well also point out that Gwok Jing judges people by their *character*, not how accomplished they are. A measly Sung soldier who gives his all to defending his country and protecting the innocent would be held higher in Gwok Jing's esteem than a martial arts master who refuses to use his skill to help others.

[tape]

At the point he criticized Yang Guo, Yang Guo had already risked his hide to win back the Wulin Chancellor position and saved the life of the scholar by getting the antidote. Yet he was ready to kill him just because he wanted to break some ancient custom.

[Ken Cheng]

At the point he criticized Yang Guo, Yang Guo had already risked his hide to win back the Wulin Chancellor position and saved the life of the scholar by getting the antidote. Yet he was ready to kill him just because he wanted to break some ancient custom.

Which did seem to matter greatly to Gwok Jing in the heat of the moment, as Gwok Jing had been conditioned his entire life to respect tradition. After he had had time to think about it, however, he concluded that it really didn't matter *that* much to him, and he was able to live with it.

I'd go by the judgment that Gwok Jing made after he had had some time to calmly reflect than the judgment he made in the heat of the moment.

[Ken Cheng]

agreed. the arrow battle with GWM was uber way to wrap things up for that scene.

i've also enjoyed the "TVB add-on?" fight scene where he easily takes on Huo Du + Da ErBa by himself to save YG in the forest. he totally needed more action scenes, being the last elite XL18Z user.

some possible add-on scene ideas like:

3 mongol mercs + those 8 first-rate mongolian wrestlers vs. GJ

or

GSZ + FYW+ LMC + HD + DEB vs GJ (both fight scenes choreographed using TVB '80s standard) would be very entertaining and highly glorifying for GJ as well. GJ was that good at those points of the novel; a pity indeed.

It would have been fun to have Gwok Jing beat the crap out of villains all through ROCH, but that would have made it that much harder for Jin Yong to make Yeung Gor look good, which was the Prime Directive of ROCH.

[tape]

Which did seem to matter greatly to Gwok Jing in the heat of the moment, as Gwok Jing had been conditioned his entire life to respect tradition. After he had had time to think about it, however, he concluded that it really didn't matter *that* much to him, and he was able to live with it.

I'd go by the judgment that Gwok Jing made after he had had some time to calmly reflect than the judgment he made in the heat of the moment.

"He said, “Guo’er used every ounce of strength he had to take back the position of the Chancellor of Wulin for us. He knows what’s right and wrong when it comes to matters of the country; he risked his life in saving you and Fu’er twice; how can his father compare with his heroic nature?
Guo Jing kept silent for a while and then suddenly said, “Rong’er, you’re even more all-knowing than Guo’er; think of a way to stop Guo’er from going down the wrong path.”


But I do agree that Guo Jing is the man, I just don't care for him much in this little incident. After all, while he was betrothed, he was holding another girl and promising to be with her forever. He seemed to forget how passionate and unforgiving love is when one is young.


This was from when Yang Guo came back to Xiang Yang to help defend the castle from what Guo Jing thought. He still thought he was going down the wrong path and even though he was clear of Yang Guo's nature, he still opposed their marriage.

[augster123]

It would have been fun to have Gwok Jing beat the crap out of villains all through ROCH, but that would have made it that much harder for Jin Yong to make Yeung Gor look good, which was the Prime Directive of ROCH.

totally fun and GJ undoubtedly deserves to have one or two of those add-on fight scenes i've mentioned put on his winning resume *shakes fist at XF*

i mean if JY was gonna just have protagonist YG get that uber 500%(?) power boost from Dugu training anyways, it wouldn't be that difficult or hurt anyone for TVB to put in a few extra, decent multi-opponent fight scenes for GJ to show his eliteness (okay...it might hurt the actors/actress doing the fighting cherography, but in the end, it'd be that much more memorable)

[Ken Cheng]

totally fun and GJ undoubtedly deserves to have one or two of those add-on fight scenes i've mentioned put on his winning resume *shakes fist at XF*

i mean if JY was gonna just have protagonist YG get that uber 500%(?) power boost from Dugu training anyways, it wouldn't be that difficult or hurt anyone for TVB to put in a few extra, decent multi-opponent fight scenes for GJ to show his eliteness (okay...it might hurt the actors/actress doing the fighting cherography, but in the end, it'd be that much more memorable)

ROCH '83 actually *left out* a glorious Gwok Jing moment. During the early fight at Chung Yeung Temple, Fok Do was supposed to have been flailing uselessly against Gwok Jing's chest (kind of like an average Kindergarten kid hitting the world heavyweight boxing champion). That was an awesome display of Gwok Jing's ability that didn't make it to the adaptation.

[Ken Cheng]

yeah XF had it much worse. I feel bad for XF. Lets make a XF glorification thread

Siu Fung doesn't really need a glorification thread, as he's plenty glorified already.

Characters such as Chan Ga Lok and Cheung Mo Gei need glorification threads badly...much more badly than even Gwok Jing does.