Was Hung 7 Gung actually a better fighter than Au Yeung Fung?

[Ken Cheng]

The Greats are, as a rule, generally depicted as being absolute equals in martial arts ability, but do you think that evidence exists to support the idea that North Beggar Hung 7 Gung might actually have been a better fighter than his mortal enemy, West Poison Au Yeung Fung?

During their titanic struggle on Au Yeung Fung's yacht in LOCH, (I believe) it was said that Hung 7 Gung actually had the upper hand and was winning the fight. Only Hung 7 Gung's choice to rescue Au Yeung Fung from a collapsing, burning mast made him vulnerable to Au Yeung Fung's poisonous snakes, which in turn made him vulnerable to a direct strike by Au Yeung Fung (which led to Hung 7 Gung being injured until the end of LOCH). If not for the burning mast, would Hung 7 Gung actually have won that fight?

During the two Greats' final fight in ROCH, it took Au Yeung Fung a whole night of hard pondering to figure out a counter to Hung 7 Gung's Dog Beating Stick Technique. By logical inference, then, doesn't that mean that had Hung 7 Gung suddenly broken out with Dog Beating Stick Technique in mid-combat, Au Yeung Fung would have been completely unprepared to handle it and been defeated?

[tape]

Hong only gained an advantage because of the fortuitous mast that was going to fall on OYF rather than him iirc. If anything, I'm inclined to believe OYF is the better martial artist just because of his tenacity, but no real evidence.

[Ren Wo Xing]

Ship battle: HQG gained an advantage because of Ouyang Ke's screw up. Ouyang Feng had just invented the Spirit Snake Fist, which he planned to use as a trump card in the event of a fight. The battle on the ship appeared to be, to him, the perfect chance to use it. Unfortunately for him, Ouyang Ke had already displayed the entirety of this fist set to Hong Qigong as he dueled against Guo Jing, and Hong Qigong had consequently spent a considerable amount of time mentally reviewing the skillset and devising counters against it. So when Ouyang Feng broke out his 'new' and 'heretofore unseen' technique, Hong Qigong immediately applied the counters he had devised to it, putting Ouyang Feng at a terrible disadvantage.

Breaking the Dog Beating Stick: Difficult to say, can be interpreted in many ways. The most logical interpretation, to me, is that what Ouyang Feng developed was the 'perfect counter' to that particular stance, which would enable him to defeat it on a technical level (think the Sun-Moon sect elders of XAJH and the drawings on the cave in Mt. Hua). Just because he wouldn't have had the time to develop the counter in a real fight, however, doesn't necessarily mean that he would be 'beaten'; likewise, just because he did develop a counter, doesn't mean that he would definitely 'win'; all of this depends on many other factors. As Feng Qingyang might put it, 'techniques are dead; the sword [ie martial artist] is alive'.

[ChronoReverse]

Yeah, H7G got the better of OYF simply because he had the opportunity to see the snake fist beforehand and develop counters. He pretty much admitted that he couldn't think of a counter immediately.

As for OYF against the DBS, while he would definitely be at a disadvantage and be in danger if H7G suddenly busted it out, I believe that he has enough skill that it wouldn't mean a swift victory for H7G either. Of course, H7G wouldn't be foolish enough to assume that either. Nonetheless, the fight would be skewed towards H7G (who would have a better chance of winning).


Incidentally, H7G actually considered the stances by themselves useless without the formula of how to use them. This means that despite how brilliant the techniques were by themselves, the power of the technique was in the usage. This is why I think that while OYF could hold out against DBS, he'll still be hard-pressed.

[Dennis Chen]

Wasn't the Snake Staff technique equal to Dog Beating Stick.

[ChronoReverse]

I seem to remember H7G and OYF actually contesting each other with DBS and Snake Staff in LOCH. Or at least, H7G was fighting with a staff technique using the actual Dog Beating Stick against OYF's snake staff technique.

Nonetheless, H7G still thought he would have prevailed over OYF in ROCH had he used the DBS technique.

[Dennis Chen]

I think all the Greats ultimately believed they'd prevail over another Great eventually. I think that's an unreliable barometer of who would win and which is more powerful; something like that would have to be spoken by the author.

[ChronoReverse]

The thing is, they were also very realistic about it.


For example, the arrogant HYS, after observing H7G sparring with OYF on his island, admitted that despite his own improvements (that he previously thought would mean he himself would be the best), the other two have also improved to at least the same degree.


These new techniques however do have the potential for one Great to upset another however. OYF's Snake Fist certainly would have tied H7G's hands if OYF had suddenly sprung it on him before H7G had seen it. DBS is the same towards OYF except nobody has ever broken the complete DBS. OYF himself only managed to break the stances of DBS, which was so insignificant (in comparison to the formula) to H7G that he didn't really mind teaching it to YG.


In any case, it's not so much H7G being a better fighter but having access to another superior martial. I'd even argue he's not as smart as he could be if he saved up a trump card but ended up dying before he could use it.

[timeless]

In my humble opinion, with Oyf and H7g being equals in fighting skills, i would take my hats off to Oyf because he was a self-made man like Hys and could come up with his own techniques to match up to H7g's age old legendary martial arts.

[person135]

OYF didn't really come up with the toad stance by himself though. it was passed down to him. He probably just mastered it like no one else before him. OYF was just a genius at martial arts (wielding toad attack to such a proficiency as well as making reverse 9yin work for him), hence he was so powerful.

H7G might be better than OYF in some parts, but the same can be said for OYF. I think overall, the two balance each other out.

[timeless]

OYF didn't really come up with the toad stance by himself though. it was passed down to him. He probably just mastered it like no one else before him. OYF was just a genius at martial arts (wielding toad attack to such a proficiency as well as making reverse 9yin work for him), hence he was so powerful.

H7G might be better than OYF in some parts, but the same can be said for OYF. I think overall, the two balance each other out.

Though they both do balance out in evey battle outcomes, one still need to give credit to Oyf for his ingenuity to devised improved techniques from whatever sub-Greats level martial arts to counter a Greats level martial arts like Xl18z, said to be best palm techniques(original Tang dynasty super karate). I am not belittling H7g, actually before the revisions and the coming of DGSD, H7g was said to be the creator of a couple of the stances to make up the 18,though predictably so when he already knew most of them.

[Snafu3721]

Though they both do balance out in evey battle outcomes, one still need to give credit to Oyf for his ingenuity to devised improved techniques from whatever sub-Greats level martial arts to counter a Greats level martial arts like Xl18z, said to be best palm techniques(original Tang dynasty super karate). I am not belittling H7g, actually before the revisions and the coming of DGSD, H7g was said to be the creator of a couple of the stances to make up the 18,though predictably so when he already knew most of them.

I've also thought about the above statement when judging the prowess of these two Greats.

1st off... just having an "Elite" level martial art doesn't make you an Elite. This is clearly demonstrated by the Wu brothers who had bits of XL18P and 1Y Finger, yet still sucked badly. In fact in DGSD, many people had access to 1Y Finger and were no where near close to the top tier fighters of that novel. So just by H7G having access to the legendary dragon palms in and of itself does not make him any less of a genius than OYF.

There was also a passage in LOCH when OYF and H7G were confronting each other on Peach Blossom island, and they were creating new techniques spontaneously to counter each other. This is something I believe is more relevant when you want to compare their relative ingeneuity.

And in truth, there is no such thing as a "Great's level technique". HYS's Finger Flick is only awesome because HYS uses it.

[Xiao Feng]

I've also thought about the above statement when judging the prowess of these two Greats.

1st off... just having an "Elite" level martial art doesn't make you an Elite. This is clearly demonstrated by the Wu brothers who had bits of XL18P and 1Y Finger, yet still sucked badly. In fact in DGSD, many people had access to 1Y Finger and were no where near close to the top tier fighters of that novel. So just by H7G having access to the legendary dragon palms in and of itself does not make him any less of a genius than OYF.

There was also a passage in LOCH when OYF and H7G were confronting each other on Peach Blossom island, and they were creating new techniques spontaneously to counter each other. This is something I believe is more relevant when you want to compare their relative ingeneuity.

And in truth, there is no such thing as a "Great's level technique". HYS's Finger Flick is only awesome because HYS uses it.

Agree with this.

Just to add another thing, being a genius martial arts creator does not automatically make someone a genius fighter. Of course, you can be a lucky bastard and be both at the same time. And I'm not implying that OYF isn't both.

I'm making this point because, this thread is about the better fighter. And quite a few posts pointed out that OYF is more of a self made man cause he created most of his skills like HYS. Yeah, credit to him but that point really isn't as relevant in a discussion about who's a better fighter straight up.

It's like, say you can make your own gun and the other guys bought theirs. But that don't mean you are a better shot.

[Dennis Chen]

Hong Qi was also a self made man. He had to claw his way up from being born a slave to showing he had what it took to learn the Dragon Palms and becoming leader of the Beggers Clan.

[Banh Mi]

Agree with this.

Just to add another thing, being a genius martial arts creator does not automatically make someone a genius fighter. Of course, you can be a lucky bastard and be both at the same time. And I'm not implying that OYF isn't both.

I'm making this point because, this thread is about the better fighter. And quite a few posts pointed out that OYF is more of a self made man cause he created most of his skills like HYS. Yeah, credit to him but that point really isn't as relevant in a discussion about who's a better fighter straight up.

It's like, say you can make your own gun and the other guys bought theirs. But that don't mean you are a better shot.

I think it's an accurate reflection of where your skills and comprehension are at least at. If you came up with an elite level skill, you should already be at the elite level. The only exception I know of this is Zhang Wuji's skill where the creator didn't reach the final level.
But in other instances, it's a pretty good reflection of where they're at. Ling Chaoying created the jade maiden style as an expression of her affection for WCY, it was equal to the level of her skills as not many could beat it, but because she wasn't going for anything groundbreaking it was inconvenient that it needed 2 people.

I think creating your own martial art proves a profound level of comprehension, and while not a determinant of how strong you are, could play a part in how fast you learn and improve.

[Xiao Feng]

I think it's an accurate reflection of where your skills and comprehension are at least at. If you came up with an elite level skill, you should already be at the elite level. The only exception I know of this is Zhang Wuji's skill where the creator didn't reach the final level.
But in other instances, it's a pretty good reflection of where they're at. Ling Chaoying created the jade maiden style as an expression of her affection for WCY, it was equal to the level of her skills as not many could beat it, but because she wasn't going for anything groundbreaking it was inconvenient that it needed 2 people.

I think creating your own martial art proves a profound level of comprehension, and while not a determinant of how strong you are, could play a part in how fast you learn and improve.

All true.

In the case of Hong Qi Gong and Ou Yang Feng, the level or their martial arts is more or less the same. That much has been set in stone since day one.

So, OYF doesn't get bonus points for creating elite level skills in determining who's a better fighter.

Honestly, I think THAT final fight between the 2 of them on Hua Shan in ROCH was JY telling us with finality that the 2 of them truly are equals. Each of them had their pros and their cons, but when you put everything together, they were both just as good a fighter.

[person135]

And in truth, there is no such thing as a "Great's level technique". HYS's Finger Flick is only awesome because HYS uses it.

how about 6msj, dg9j, 9yang, and yjj?

for the people that learned these skills, they had very tiny martial arts background (except LHC, but he sucked before dg9j). once they learned it they were immediately at greats level (maybe perhaps not YTZ), though they couldn't fight like a great.

these guys just became powerful after learning these things lol.

[ChronoReverse]

LHC wasn't even close to great class after learning DG9J. Even after he got the chance to spar with RWX (in a safe manner that is) which was when his skill increased a huge amount, he still wasn't at the level of the two greats with known levels (FZ and RWX) much less a truly great fighter like DFBB.