Why Dragon Saber and Heavenly Sword?

[Aventinus]

And don't lay that one at the feet of Gwok Jing and Wong Yung: they did the best they could with what they had. If anyone was to blame, it would be the useless Sung emperors and their equally useless administrations.

Which just goes to show GJ should have sided with the folks who nurtured him as a child, and not useless fools just because of his blood.

[Ken Cheng]

Which just goes to show GJ should have sided with the folks who nurtured him as a child, and not useless fools just because of his blood.

I don't think it's that simple, though. When you peel away everything from the character of "Gwok Jing" - his martial arts skills, his teachers, his friends, etc., what you're left with is a man who doesn't want to see people needlessly get hurt.

The reality at the time was that the Mongols were the ones slaughtering and enslaving the Han Chinese, so Gwok Jing, true to his nature, sided with the victims rather than the aggressors.

Had Sung China been a powerful military state that menaced the peaceful tribes of the Mongolian steppes, Gwok Jing's allegiances might have been different.

I think that characterizing Gwok Jing as a "patriot," as if he were nothing more than a mindless nationalist (who could characterize everyone from Benito Mussolini to Rush Limbaugh), doesn't do credit to the character. In fact, Gwok Jing, like many other Jin Yong protagonists, was a humanist who valued human life in a manner uncommon in premodern times.

[Billsy]

I don't think it's that simple, though. When you peel away everything from the character of "Gwok Jing" - his martial arts skills, his teachers, his friends, etc., what you're left with is a man who doesn't want to see people needlessly get hurt.

The reality at the time was that the Mongols were the ones slaughtering and enslaving the Han Chinese, so Gwok Jing, true to his nature, sided with the victims rather than the aggressors.

Had Sung China been a powerful military state who were menacing the peaceful tribes of the Mongolian steppes, Gwok Jing's allegiances might have been different.

I think that characterizing Gwok Jing as a "patriot," as if he were nothing more than a mindless nationalist (who could characterize everyone from Benito Mussolini to Rush Limbaugh), doesn't do credit to the character. In fact, Gwok Jing, like many other Jin Yong protagonists, was a humanist who valued human life in a manner uncommon in premodern times.

GJ spent 16 years doing nothing on Peach Blossom Island. Enough said.

[Ken Cheng]

GJ spent 16 years doing nothing on Peach Blossom Island. Enough said.

Thirteen, not sixteen, and becoming arguably the world's # 1 martial artist at the time isn't "nothing."

I think the thirteen year layoff was taken not for martial arts (although that was one hell of a great side benefit), but for Gwok Fu. I think raising her kept the Gwoks on Peach Blossom Island longer than they had originally planned to stay.

Lee Mok Sau's advent aside, it must have been an extraordinarily dull thirteen years in wulin between LOCH and ROCH.

[Billsy]

Thirteen, not sixteen, and becoming arguably the world's # 1 martial artist at the time isn't "nothing."

I think the thirteen year layoff was taken not for martial arts (although that was one hell of a great side benefit), but for Gwok Fu. I think raising her kept the Gwoks on Peach Blossom Island longer than they had originally planned to stay.

Lee Mok Sau's advent aside, it must have been an extraordinarily dull thirteen years in wulin between LOCH and ROCH.

Why didn't they take another 13 year vacation after giving birth to GX? So WTH was GJ doing on Peach Blossom Island for 13 years? Why was he wasting 13 years of his life on the island doing nothing besides enjoying HR while she ended up laying just one egg?

[Ken Cheng]

Why didn't they take another 13 year vacation after giving birth to GX?

Because by that time, the invasion of China by the Mongols was *on*. The thirteen year interlude was a sort of extended reprieve after the death of Genghis Khan because the Mongols were occupied conquering the Middle East and Europe (and what remained of the Jin Empire), and that remained the case until around the time that Yeung Gor and Gwok Fu were nineteen years old or so.

When we saw the heroes gather at Luk Family Manor in ROCH, that was the first serious action that Chinese wulin had taken in preparation for the impending Mongol invasion in years. As long as the Mongols weren't actively invading, it was better to let sleeping dogs lie (because when you're at a disadvantage, you don't go and PROVOKE a war), but since the Mongols were fixing to extend their territory, well...

It was time for the Avengers to assemble.

So WTH was GJ doing on Peach Blossom Island for 13 years?

Becoming a Great. In wulin, that kind of cachet will get you *many* more affirmative responses if you're recruiting people to help you fight an extended war. Remember: martial arts in wulin is like money in modern society. The more you have of it, the more you can tell other people to do what you want them to do.

[CC]

Why didn't they take another 13 year vacation after giving birth to GX? So WTH was GJ doing on Peach Blossom Island for 13 years? Why was he wasting 13 years of his life on the island doing nothing besides enjoying HR while she ended up laying just one egg?

Seriously guys. We all know that the 13 years was to allow Yang Guo to grow up so that JY could get on with the ROCH story.

[kyss of the sword]

the main reason the mongols won was the song government was weak and corrupt. GJ and HR knew it was impossible to drive the mongolians out then until a change is made inside the country. they would need time to raise a new army and gather the heroes and make preparations. by that time, even if they lived, they might be too old to lead the battle. so they hid the manuals inside the saber and sword and gave one to each of their youngest children. they were planning for the future. the poem was probably a secret code that guo xiang would have understood that got out into the public. guo polu died defending xiangyang and the saber was lost. HR's plan would have been for her children to survive, gather together and plan for the future battle. even the best plans of gods go awry. liekly they also sent a copy of the manuals to yang guo and XLN since their desendent seems fully aware of the situation. since shi huolong's wife knew where to find lady yang, it stands to reason that guo jing and HR met with or were able to contact YG before their end. it's a good bet that YG and XLN retired to DGKB's valley to reside. both places were remote and hard to find. it was not more then a couple of days from xiangyang. guo xiang went looking for yang guo in the other parts of the country he roamed around before the reunion with XLN so she never met him and she did not tell her parents that she was going to look for him, so they may not have told her his location. either yelu qi or the wu bros might have known and passed the knowledge to the successor leader of the begger clan.

[Ken Cheng]

Seriously guys. We all know that the 13 years was to allow Yang Guo to grow up so that JY could get on with the ROCH story.

I think what Billsy of Honolulu wants to know is why, during those thirteen years, the Gwoks didn't park themselves somewhere where they could fight people every day rather than on Peach Blossom Island, where it was apparently nothing but sun, fun, and peaches and cream for thirteen years.

[Ken Cheng]

BTW, I am from Vegas not Honolulu.

Sure you are.

I've had enough fun. As they say in Vegas...show's over.

[Aventinus]

I think the thirteen year layoff was taken not for martial arts (although that was one hell of a great side benefit), but for Gwok Fu. I think raising her kept the Gwoks on Peach Blossom Island longer than they had originally planned to stay.
.

And we all know how well that turned out...

[bliss]

The Guos hidding the manuals inside the 2 weapons could be justified from a statistics and probability point of view. HR was highly smart so she mustve been aware that the chance to obtain both weapons was very low so whoever came into possession of both of them would most likely be a powerful, and hopefully morally worthy, person from jianghu. That person would then give the war manual to a worthy military leader as per the instruction in the manuals, and keep the 9yinzhenjing for himself.

All things considered, the Heaven Sword/Dragon Sabre plan DID work out exactly as they had planned. Zhang Wuji ended up handing Yue Fei's War Manual to Zhu Yuanzhang (was this in the book?) who eventually founded the Ming Dynasty, and Zhang kept the 9 Yin Manual (not that he needed it) in case he needed to depose of the eventual Ming emperor.

[tape]

Just because it worked doesn't mean it was a great plan. I could jump off a mountain and land on some magical fairy dust and be alive and magical. But the act of jumping off a mountain was still moronic.

A million things could have easily gone wrong. Jinhua Popo could have found Wuji, and traded him for the Dragon Sabre. She could've fought Miejue, and they would've clashed and broke the weapons and discovered the secrets. Who knows what could have happened there.

Basically everything was so random, and it happened by chance that their "plan" worked. The Heaven Sword and Dragon Sabre realistically should never both fall into a righteous person's hands because they wouldn't be coveting another person's belongings, and if he did, well his character might have some flaws and giving him those manuals might not be a good idea.

What if the Mongols turned into a great civilization 100 years later, and then the manual is found? It'd be the cause of a downfall of a great civilization. Or if the Mongols were defeated by another force, then the manual was found and leads to more bloodshed etc. I just don't like their little plan.

[kyss of the sword]

besides, HR's plan went wrong almost from the start when her daughter returned to xiangyang late and her son got killed. it took a hundred years for a good person to get the wu mu manual and instead of the pugilist uniting under the dragon saber, they started to kill each other over it.

[wang23]

Why was everyone so obsessed with the Dragon Sabre and not so much with the Heaven Sword? There were tons of people going after Tse Shun but not so Mie Jue. Was it because of the poem behind it that the Dragon Sabre can help you rule the world? Or was it because people were afraid of Mie Jue?

[tape]

I think the Dragon Sabre was constantly changing hands, so every few weeks/months/years someone would catch whiff of where it was and steal the sabre from the owner. It wasn't well known where it was, but I think the local area where it was in was generally aware it was around the vicinity and many people would try to steal it.

The Heaven Sword I think was a bit more well kept, with Guo Xiang and the successors of E'mei holding onto it. They didn't make it too well known that they had it, and were powerful enough that short of other sect masters, they don't have much chance of stealing it.

[PJ]

Was it because of the poem behind it that the Dragon Sabre can help you rule the world?

I believe that was the main reason.

[wang23]

I think the Dragon Sabre was constantly changing hands, so every few weeks/months/years someone would catch whiff of where it was and steal the sabre from the owner. It wasn't well known where it was, but I think the local area where it was in was generally aware it was around the vicinity and many people would try to steal it.

The Heaven Sword I think was a bit more well kept, with Guo Xiang and the successors of E'mei holding onto it. They didn't make it too well known that they had it, and were powerful enough that short of other sect masters, they don't have much chance of stealing it.

I think ironically, if wulin knew that the Dragon Sabre had Yue Fei's war manual and the Heaven Sword had 9 Yin Manual, everyone would be after the Heaven Sword instead.

[Ken Cheng]

I think ironically, if wulin knew that the Dragon Sabre had Yue Fei's war manual and the Heaven Sword had 9 Yin Manual, everyone would be after the Heaven Sword instead.

In any case, you need both to get the full benefits of either of them. The Heaven Sword unlocks the Dragon Sabre and vice-versa.

[wang23]

In any case, you need both to get the full benefits of either of them. The Heaven Sword unlocks the Dragon Sabre and vice-versa.

Just curious. Was that common knowledge? Or was that a secret Mie Jue knew from Gwok Seung passing it on? I only recall Zhou being aware from Mie Jue.