Was the '7 stars gathering' technique a logical counter to Ancient Tomb martial arts?

[Doc Kwok]

Upon witnessing the martial arts of Yang Guo and Little Dragon girl, the Quanzhen sect realised that they were the nemesis of their own martial arts, and the surviving members of the 7 sons secluded themselves to research a counter. They found themselves unable to counter the Ancient Tomb techniques on a technical level, which is no shame for them, since their founder Wang Chongyang couldn't either (at least not without 9 yin). But then Qiu Chuji thought of an idea inspired by the Big Dipper formation - use raw power to compensate for their technical deficiency. So they developed their '7 stars gathering' technique, whereby they would focus their combined force at a single point. They would stand together tightly, shoulder-to-shoulder (not palm-to-back like in ROCH '83!), and throw their palms out.

It seems reasonable enough - use overwhelming force to blast straight through fancy technique. The 18 dragon subduing palms and YG's heavy iron sword used the same basic principle. The question is: how did they ever expect to hit their target?

Practictioners of Ancient Tomb martial arts had supreme lightness arts - they were fast and agile, and could even stand on top of your weapon! The Quanzhen priests, already at a major disadvantage in that department, would be further hobbled by the alignment requirements of the technique. While we know little about the specifics, it seems that the users must at least be close together and facing the same direction. However, the Ancient Tomb practitioners were experts at literally running circles around their opponents (as can be seen with YG and the two beggars), so if they did that, then the Quanzhen priests would be forced to turn with them to use the technique, which renders it useless since they would never be able to catch up all at once, if at all.

This seems to be borne out in practice when the remaining 5 sons first fought XLN - they were blasted apart before they could even begin to form up to use the technique. After they had a reprieve (due to the Mongolians joining in) and managed to pull off the technique, XLN easily dodged it - while fighting off the four Mongolians at the same time.

By contrast, the original Big Dipper formation would seem to be a more suitable match for Ancient Tomb fighters, since the users are spread out over a larger area (thereby slowing any circling) and defended by their neighbours, so they do not necessarily have to turn to face a circling attacker (since attacks will be blocked by neighbours) and a circler would be forced to go around them rather than the priests being forced to turn to face the circler (unless you know about the magical Northern star position like Guo Jing did, of course, but YG and XLN didn't). So why didn't they simply rely on the good ol' Big Dipper formation? I suppose a slight advantage over the Big Dipper formation is that the '7 stars gathering' can work with fewer than 7 members, but Quanzhen isn't exactly short on numbers.

And frankly, even if it did work as intended, '7 stars gathering' is a lame counter, since it relies (again) on mob tactics, pitting many against a few.

[kyss of the sword]

no. it should be the best counter, as it is a skill that should be used alongside big dipper formation, even through 7 star combination can be done with as few as three people. plus JLFW was stated to have lost to XLN because he became timid seeing her new skill and did not use his superior strength to gain victory. YG when learning heavy sword realised he could defeat maiden purity with a heavy and powerful trust. so overwhelming power is the way to go.

[Doc Kwok]

no. it should be the best counter, as it is a skill that should be used alongside big dipper formation, even through 7 star combination can be done with as few as three people. plus JLFW was stated to have lost to XLN because he became timid seeing her new skill and did not use his superior strength to gain victory. YG when learning heavy sword realised he could defeat maiden purity with a heavy and powerful trust. so overwhelming power is the way to go.

That doesn't change the fundamental flaw though - all users of the '7 star gathering' must be aligned properly to use it, and an ancient tomb fighter will simply not give them that chance. If one person were able to use it, then it might work, but with >= 3 people, there is pretty much no chance whatsoever.

Ancient tomb martial artists were never known for their resilience or overwhelming power (YG deviated almost 180 degrees from the ancient tomb approach, so doesn't count), so the trick is in getting a clean hit on them in the first place. A single, clean hit from the likes of Qiu Chuji should be more than enough to bring one down.

It's like having a pesky fly buzzing around you, and you bringing out a heavy bazooka to shoot it down - total overkill if it hits, but the probability of getting a hit is nearly zero.

[Ren Wo Xing]

I thought it was something alone the lines of 9Yang's 'defeating motion with stillness'.

[pannonian]

I thought it was something alone the lines of 9Yang's 'defeating motion with stillness'.

Ancient Tomb's martial arts WRT Quanzhen are a closer fit to the idea of defeating motion with stillness, as the Ancient Tombers are familiar with Quanzhen arts. Not only is the reverse not true, Xiao Longnu is fast enough to evade whatever stillness the Quanzhen masters can use. I'd say it's like the final step of the Proud Dragon Repents, but without the preliminary skill necessary to make that move effective.

[tape]

Super bump of an old thread I randomly clicked on, but isn't the premise the same as saying GWM made a mistake competing technique with L/R using Dragon Girl instead of using power?

If she's so much faster and attacking with swords, how exactly is he able to use the supposedly proper response of power instead of technique if he can't touch her while she can launch swords attacks with an outside chance of landing while he can't ever possibly hit her?

With people like Huang Yaoshi and Hong Qigong, the speed difference is not as large and Qigong can sort of control space with palms and palm wind.

With XLN and GWM, it's super exaggerated where one is way faster than the other, and one is way stronger than the other. The speedier person is going to have an advantage with swords and there's no way around it. This has always been a fight I never liked, not because I like XLN or hate GWM, but because the reasoning only makes sense on the surface. What exactly should GWM have done to not lose the fight? Just swing his wheels randomly but powerfully and create a semi forcefield? Still doesn't seem like a way to victory.