Divine Condor Had HIGHER than Greats-level Power (Pre-18 years)

[pannonian]

Here are some rather difficult problems if we put GJ and JLFW as pre 16 years greats equal in inner power cultivation:

YG can match inner power with JLFW after just 1 month of trainning. His internal power must at least close if not equal to the greats. How could it possibly be?

Nowhere near. From chapter 30 - Strange Encounters:

Having seen Yang Guo defeating Ci’en, Reverend Yideng thought to
himself, “Such a young hero is really very rare.” Then he stepped
forward and touched the sword blade with his finger. Heat shot through
Yang Guo’s left arm, and his black iron sword was immediately brushed
aside.

When used in action, the heavy sword could go through Qiu Qianren's defence. But when he wasn't using the sword, Yang Guo's internal wasn't remotely near the Greats'.

[islandmaster108]

Again, how did you come to that conclusion? The narrator says that they were pretty close to equal. For that matter how do you know if OYF might not be on the losing end instead?

I don't even see how this could be discussed. In both cases, the situation was described enough to draw the appropriate conclusions even if they weren't blatantly spelled out.

Here is a quote:

The crowd all thought that Da’erba would definitely hit his target with this stance; Guo Jing did not wait for the sweep to hit its target and dashed out, wanting to grab his back. He saw a red flash in front of his eyes; Jinlun Fawang’s palm was coming towards him. Guo Jing saw that the palm was coming in extremely fast so he quickly used a stance of “Seeing the Dragon in the Field”. The two of them did not make a sound as the palms clashed; two flashes were seen as the two separated.

Guo Jing took three steps back while Jinlun Fawang stood his ground steadily. His strength was much stronger than Guo Jing’s and his internal energy was profound, but the proficiency of his palms could not compare with Guo Jing’s. Guo Jing took the steps back to disperse the enemy’s force and avoid injury. But Jinlun Fawang was too proud; he forced himself to meet this palm solidly, enduring the pain in his chest, as he stood there without moving.


If GJ have advantage in palm proficiency, the fact that the palm clash is a tie show that JLFW is superior in strength. If you assert that strength is determine by inner power alone than JLFW inner power is superior. If you think that strength is not determine by inner power alone, than the palm clash between GJ and OYF at beginning of RACH can be considered a tie due to GJ superior external strength not his inner power. I do not doubt that GJ external strength is better than OYF.


Do you agree with the following assertion or not"

1. GJ and JLFW is at least equal in internal power?

2. Do you believe that YG is able to contend with JLFW in a inner power match without being totally outmatch?

if you believe it to be so. and you believe that GJ = JLFW= great level. Than it follows that YG's inner power is close to the greats.

[islandmaster108]

It is true that their is a statement by JY that GJ and OYF are equal but if you look carefully it only refers to the palm clash which could be equal due to external strength and even if it determine by inner power, it is not conclusive because the palm clash is too short. Much like YG able to match JLFW in inner strength but will eventually lose in the end. Besides I have given some other evidence to show that GJ recovery time from the injury is equal if not longer than OYF. It is a contrary evidence due to JY's statement that GJ recovery is faster but that exactly what I meant, their is a conflicting evidence.

[islandmaster108]

Nowhere near. From chapter 30 - Strange Encounters:

Having seen Yang Guo defeating Ci’en, Reverend Yideng thought to
himself, “Such a young hero is really very rare.” Then he stepped
forward and touched the sword blade with his finger. Heat shot through
Yang Guo’s left arm, and his black iron sword was immediately brushed
aside.

When used in action, the heavy sword could go through Qiu Qianren's defence. But when he wasn't using the sword, Yang Guo's internal wasn't remotely near the Greats'.

When YG is matching inner power with JLFW, he cannot use the power of the sword. He face JLFW with inner strength alone and he manage to hold it on equal terms at least for the moment. His power is close enough for that which meant his internal is close to JLFW. If you than show that YG inner power is far lower than the greats. You have just showed that JLFW is inferior to the greats and since GJ and JLFW is equal it also means that pre-16 years GJ is also inferior to the greats. Bare in mind that this is just in terms of internal cultivation not in other aspect.

[Dirt]

By ROCH, it wasn't about power for the elder Greats anymore. It was their experience and cultivation. From Ouyang Feng breaking the Dog Beating Stick, to Yideng's profound internal energy.

Probably the same for DGQB. HIS is all about power. The Wooden Sword stage is all about skill.

[Ken Cheng]

When YG is matching inner power with JLFW, he cannot use the power of the sword. He face JLFW with inner strength alone and he manage to hold it on equal terms at least for the moment. His power is close enough for that which meant his internal is close to JLFW. If you than show that YG inner power is far lower than the greats. You have just showed that JLFW is inferior to the greats and since GJ and JLFW is equal it also means that pre-16 years GJ is also inferior to the greats. Bare in mind that this is just in terms of internal cultivation not in other aspect.

The Heavy Iron Sword gave Yeung Gor a great amount of leverage in that matchup, both physical and psychological. Had he attempted the same feat against the same opponent during the same circumstances *without* the Heavy Iron Sword in hand, his chances would have been pretty bad.

[islandmaster108]

The Heavy Iron Sword gave Yeung Gor a great amount of leverage in that matchup, both physical and psychological. Had he attempted the same feat against the same opponent during the same circumstances *without* the Heavy Iron Sword in hand, his chances would have been pretty bad.

I agree that without the heavy iron sword, YG would not have been able to fight the mongol merc let alone JLFW. But what kind of advantage does theHeavy sword give YG? Please check the following quote and due credits to the translation team:

"
In just a short while, three out of five of Fawang’s wheels were destroyed. Still he was not discouraged, brandishing his gold and steel wheels around without fear. Yang Guo stretched out his sword while Fawang sidestepped to evade Yang Guo’s sword strikes. This time he didn’t throw out his wheels. Even though he wouldn’t be able to attack from afar, this was actually more powerful. When he saw Yang Guo and Xiao Longnu together, attacking on the left side and resisting on the right side, he jumped up high in the air and bore down with both wheels, sending out the Wu-Wu humming sound. Yang Guo’s black iron sword did appear quite dull but no matter how Fawang changed his moves, he couldn’t get within two or three steps of the couple. Forty or fifty moves passed, both Fawang’s wheels returned again and were about to pound into Xiao Longnu. Yang Guo thrust out the black iron sword, and the soft clattering sound was heard as the two weapons met. Both Yang Guo and Fawang sent out their internal forces to their weapons. Both refused to budge and were now motionless in a deadlock situation.

Yang Guo could feel that the opponent’s continuing waves of energy growing stronger and stronger, he was secretly alarmed: “This person’s internal energy is surprisingly high.” He also thought: “We’re already matching internal forces and the full power of the black iron sword can’t be lashed out. If this battle of internal forces goes on for a long time, the one with more profound energy would have the upper hand. If he moves his body forward further, I’ll use the sleeve to strike him by surprise.” As a result, his left arm was slowly pulled back. The two people were originally five feet or so apart. The distance was gradually reduced to five feet and then four and a half, from four and a half to four feet.

"

It is specifically stated by the time of the deadlock internal match, the power of the heavy sword can no longer be lash out. We can gather from this that the heavy sword weight and durability amplifies YG damage power but only if he can swing it or trust it out. In short it, it gave YG advantage as long as the sword is moving.

It is also stated that YG is not confident to win in the match not that he felt he is losing. Granted that YG is rather arrogant but this shows that he is not outmatch. Since the sword can no longer help YG, and the fact that YG is not outmatch suggest that in term of internal power YG is relatively close to JLFW.

As we know, There is the statement in the novel that said LMC cultivation is higher than YG. There is this huge gap in our minds between LMC inner power level compared to the greats inner power level. If we then put YG's inner power level below LMC and we assert pre 16 years JLFW = pre 16 years GJ = Pre 16 years greats in inner cultivation, the inner power match between YG and JLFW as shown above becomes rather impossible.

That is the reason why I start to think that pre 16 years JLFW is still inferior in inner power compared to the greats. Unfortunately, by doing so I must also put GJ inner power cultivation below the greats because more than once Jin Yong mention in the novel that there are both equal. However, I face the difficulty when I am presented with the fight between GJ and OYF at Beginning of RACH. I then give my evidence in which I finally found out that that there are some conflicting evidence, thus began the debate.

[Ren Wo Xing]

The only conflict is with the LMC quote, which is why most people here long ago discarded it.

[islandmaster108]

The only conflict is with the LMC quote, which is why most people here long ago discarded it.

If GJ and JLFW level is move down, lets say at the level of the greats at the end of LOCH, then LMC's gap with JLFW will be reduced. With the consideration of LMC being from a sect which Kung Fu depends more on lightness then Force, it can be argued that she cannot use her energy to produce great attack power. If we give YG a level just below LMC's level then the internal match between YG and JLFW will make much more sense and the LMC's quote will remain true also. The only problem is the fight between GJ and OYF at RACH beginning. It is explicitly said that OYF's injury is heavier than GJ but in later quote it is shown that OYF can recover in 7 days while GJ needs 10 to 15 days.

[islandmaster108]

Okay! I hereby challenge the long standing assertion that pre 16 years GJ is equal to pre 16 years greats. I invite all senior members and experts in the forum to break my arguements with all the evidence and analysis in your disposal, for I believe my theory answer some questions that previously cannot be answered.

[ChronoReverse]

Sure why not.

I put forth that GJ was in fact stronger than both GWM and OYF when considering their respective conflicts if we start looking at things the way you do.




***OYF and GJ***
We can't really determine who's stronger here by their injuries. GJ might take up to two weeks to fully recover but OYF at the end of the week was still in such bad shape that KZE could have taken his life.

However we do know this:
(a) OYF was using both arms while GJ was using one
(b) This was because OYF didn't care about collapsing the roof they were on
(c) This also meant that OYF was going all out while GJ was deliberately holding back
(d) GJ was using Kang Long You Hui (Overcoming the Dragon with Regret) which had 13 levels of power. His power was still increasing during their fight and GJ had not yet used the highest level

Despite all these handicaps, GJ was only losing an inch against OYF!

Therefore I put forth that on level ground, forget simply forcing a draw, GJ would have pushed OYF back if they were on level ground where GJ didn't have to hold back.




***GWM and GJ***
=1=
Their initial fight was declared a draw by the narrator. Had GJ thrown out another attack, GWM would have died right there and then (and we would have no story left). GJ's technique is better while GWM's internal was better and that makes it a draw? If your poor technique includes being an idiot and not using technique to reduce feedback, then GJ will beat GWM every single time. This sort of boneheadedness is consistent with GWM too (not a one time thing).


=2=
The bow and arrow incident when GJ was scaling the city walls. GWM fired several arrows at GJ but the most notable one is when GJ fired back at the end.
(a) GJ's supreme technique is what allows him to fire three rapid high powered arrows
(b) However, it is infusing internal energy that truly defines the power of the arrows. Mongolian bows are superior but we'll give GJ yet another handicap and say they were using equal bows
(c) GJ had the height advantage but he was using snap shots as opposed to GWM being able to use a full draw (the ability to infuse massive chi quickly is also a sign of superiority). Let's put this at nearly a draw

Despite this, GJ's arrow still crushed GWM's. Not canceled out or deflect. And this is not even accounting for GJ snapping both the flag pole GWM should have been guarding along with the bow in GWM's own hands. GWM couldn't even protect the bow in his hands when GJ deflected an earlier arrow from GWM using his bare hands.


=3=
The fight in the Mongolian camp puts GWM to even more shame. Here he was "competing advanced internal energies" with GJ implying that this was their high level internal energies. Again it's two of his hands to GJ's one.

This sort of competition should have rendered GJ completely immobile (as seen in many other similar situations). Why then do we see GJ fending off someone else at the same time, taking a direct hit, countering the sneak attack (enough to inflict serious injury) before GWM finally overcomes him? If GWM was actually holding back a significant amount of power beyond a tiny "final shove" he'd be twice the fool. Holding back in such a critical situation (and GWM earlier in the fight already acknowledge GJ's power) could have easily meant a surge from GJ could have crushed GWM. Even if GWM really had equal power to GJ, if he was prone to not using it then he might as well not have it since GJ will happily apply all of his own energy to GWM's head.



***Conclusion***
Basically the only thing that truly indicates GJ's "parity" with the other Greats is the narrative. Every single time there's actually action, he demonstrates superiority. GJ doesn't receive favorable odds. In fact he's always horribly handicapped. He's not even the protagonist this time around and doesn't have the same kind of plot immunity YG would. And his power is almost entirely his own hard work.

[islandmaster108]

Thanks for your response. Here's my arguement. First of all, I say GJ inferiority is only in terms of internal power, so we can exclude technique that gives one a tactical or strategic advantage. The sort like dog beating stick tech for example. Only external arts that allows efficiency and effective use of power can be accounted and in this case, The one who is using a superior technique will not need to use that much energy to produce the same power or can produce a greater power with less energy. XL18z is the most prominent arts in this category. this gives GJ much advantage without nessasarily means that his energy is higher. Bare in mind the difference between energy and attack power.

secondly, internal has no limits but external does have limits. Just because one have better energy does not means he/she can automatically produce greater power. I think there is a quote about this in LOCH book 2 in a chapter called the three test. Even someone with 3 times XZ internal cannot produce attack power much higher then GJ's XL18z because if they do their hand which is made of flesh and blood will break. In addition if you channel to much power at once, your internal passage will also break like a a pipe with to much water.

GJ with OYF:
GJ using one arm against OYF two is due to the their fighting style. The proud dragon shows remorse is not reduce in power because GJ use one hand and OYF is not losing. If the energy clash continued, we shall know who's internal is better. You see, they are both strong and they cannot just throw out all their energy at once like I said. So the only way to know their energy level is for them to match energy in a long duration. Not to mention the added effect of XL18z. As for handicap, being attack by HR from behind certainly should even the odds.

This condition also holds in case of JLFW, It is not that JLFW is holding back, it is just that he cannot use all his energy at once. The palm clash is short and the fact that the other mongol merc is thrown aside is because of the internal energy battle between the two of them. It is often shown that when two or more powerrful masters compete in internal energy, the low level fighter cannot even get close, not just because of the energy of one person but because of the energy field produce by all of the combatant. I think this is what make the mongol merc cannot work effectively.

In the case of the archery contest, JLFW archery skills is just mediocre at best. I believe archery is not his strong point. If you say that GJ's archery skill is XL18z, then JLFW archery skill is QZ palm technique.

There is one thing that makes me believe that OYF is better in internal cultivation then GJ. When one is injured, there is two kinds of damage. One is the damage to the body, the other the damage or let me say loss of internal energy. GJ's body injury is certainly lighter due to age and stronger body but in order to recover or regather the loss energy he needs 10 to 15 days. OYF on the other hand may require longer to clear his meridians and unclog his veins, much like bruises when you get knock by something, but when he did he needs only 7 days to recover his loss of energy. This is a very good indicator of internal energy cultivation, as reliable as a long duration energy battle like what happens between HKG and OYF at Mt.Hua.

[ChronoReverse]

GJ using one arm against OYF two is due to the their fighting style. The proud dragon shows remorse is not reduce in power because GJ use one hand and OYF is not losing.

Wow that was pulled out of your ***. Every single instance H7G and XF used that move it was with both hands. So somehow GJ can exert his maximum force using one arm? Despite the narrator spelling it out that GJ couldn't exert full force because of multiple factors?

This condition also holds in case of JLFW, It is not that JLFW is holding back, it is just that he cannot use all his energy at once.

Pulled out of you *** again since there's no indication anywhere of this in the narrative. Of course if GWM had trouble bringing out his full power instantly then he'd be crushed by most of the Greats who certainly didn't have trouble using their power at will.

In the case of the archery contest, JLFW archery skills is just mediocre at best. I believe archery is not his strong point. If you say that GJ's archery skill is XL18z, then JLFW archery skill is QZ palm technique.

Did you even attempt to think about what I wrote? I specifically isolated out archery skill from the equation. If you want to dispute that then give reasons why it wouldn't be the case at least.

OYF on the other hand may require longer to clear his meridians and unclog his veins, much like bruises when you get knock by something, but when he did he needs only 7 days to recover his loss of energy.

What makes you think he'd have also fully recovered his energy? It's just enough so that he could beat HR really since OYF himself said that if HR comes before then OYF would be screwed. OYF didn't even know how strong GJ was (another indication of how GJ wasn't using full power) to the point where he thought it would take GJ 7 days be able to move when he was already able to move (and remember, HMG had the property of lingering damage which HL18P didn't have).

And this is still ignoring how OYF had put his full force into his attack while GJ had not.



Finally all that rhetoric about attack energy and internal energy is also pretty ridiculous when they were deadlocked in an internal energy battle for the primary fights. The whole "omg the flesh and bones would break" thing doesn't even come into play assuming (and this is a huge assumption) it even really exists.

[tape]

I suck at quoting so...

I believe there were multiple times where a XL18Z practitioner used only one palm. The other arm was described as drawing a circle or something while one arm delivered the blow.

I don't think the archery thing proves anything because JY loves to let one character win, or let characters be equal because of a certain factor, even though that factor isn't logically consistent. Mongolians have superior archery skills, but they don't know how to infuse inner strength in an arrow, but somehow Guo Jing, due to his superior archery skills is able to infuse his arrows better than GWM. GWM at this point definitely has higher inner strength than Guo Jing because it was a direct narrator quote before their palm clash a few days/weeks ago. This scene was meant to glorify Guo Jing due to his archery skills and as a heroic protagonist, but definitely not his superior inner strength despite what the scene may imply.

I think it is pretty reasonable and apparent that Guo Jing has lower inner strength than the rest of the Greats due to his young age. However he has youthful vigor, a body in his prime, and better techniques and methods of utilizing his inner strength than the rest of the Greats. If his inner strength was equal to the rest of them, there would be no doubt that he'd completely trounce them with his superior usage and higher level techniques in XL18Z, 9 Yin, and Left/Right technique.

But inner strength isn't the only part of the equation of course, and Guo Jing has in fact shown that he is stronger than the other Greats, if only marginally, due to his superior performances in almost every fight he was involved in.

[ChronoReverse]

That's the whole thing. There's only the narrator saying that GJ's internal is lower but there's been many cases where the narrator was plain wrong.

In any instance where you start reducing down to internal energy clashes like GJ vs OYF or GJ vs Mongolians, there's no indication GJ's internal energy was any less powerful than his opponents.

You can go on about better technique and such but that only applies for actual attacks like GJ vs GWM at the Heroes' Meeting. When it comes down to deadlocks and cases where it's specifically stated that they were competing internal energy there's no longer any wriggle room.



Also, about the single palm parts of HL18P, there certainly are stances where it's only one palm but I mentioned the technique name because this one was used a lot by all three main HL18P practitioners and it was usually with both hands.

Not that it matters since it wasn't even the only factor showing how GJ wasn't using full power (narration, single hand, not 13th level of power, not using legs, worried about roof collapsing).

If his inner strength was equal to the rest of them, there would be no doubt that he'd completely trounce them with his superior usage and higher level techniques in XL18Z, 9 Yin, and Left/Right technique.

That's exactly what I'm arguing for. GJ pretty much pulled out a draw in every actual fight despite massive handicaps. I have little doubt that he'd win ninety times out a hundred bouts with either OYF or GWM if the fights were fair. And if you want to argue that GJ only had 95% of the internal energy of GWM then I'll say that is so small as so be not even academic. It's not like each Great in LOCH had precisely the same internal energy despite being equal.

[islandmaster108]

I have to re read the translation about JLFW using two hands while GJ is using one hand.

If I am not mistaken, The proud dragon shows remorse is like: "Right foot in front, left foot in the back, left hand make a half circle, right hand push forward?" It suppose to use only one hand. Oh yeah, I think GJ and OYF both does not core about the roff, only after they have fall down and purch on the beams that GJ starts worriying about the inn occupants and loss his footing.

Leaving the archery skill out of the equation is not right. JLFW needs to make a full draw before he can infuse chi, or perhaps he needs much more time to make a full draw compared to GJ. GJ can make a full draw in a rapid succession, JLFW simply does not have enough time to make another shot. If someone knows how to infuse chi into an arrow shot, it is GJ.

What I meant about not able to use their full power is like this. JY's characters just cannot gather all energy in their body, make a super powerfull blast then collapse due to exauxtion. Not only JLFW, all of them including GJ and the greats. That is why a long duration energy battle is needed. Those kind of skill usually appears in Japanese manga.

[tape]

Proud Dragon Repents specifically is the circle drawing one I mentioned, so I brought it up unless I'm misremembering.

I think Islandmaster has a point where you need a prolonged inner energy duel in order to determine who has weaker inner strength. There are quite a few occasions where weaker fighters could handle a couple palm clashes without too much effort, and even last a decent amount of time when competing inner strength.

Guo Jing really wasn't put to the test in that way, and most of his fights have allowed him mobility to use techniques and palms where he can mitigate his lower inner energy with superior usage or better techniques.

Zhang Cuisan matched Xie Xun for quite a while, and at that point in time he was probably at only 50% of his inner strength if that. Guo Jing in LOCH has shown that he could match palms with QQR, and had plenty of palm exchanges with the other Greats where he could hold his own when he only had anywhere from 50-70% of their power and inferior technique and usage also. With 80-90% of someone's inner strength, I think technique can make up for lack of inner strength without it being too apparent.

And the point about inner strength not being equal to attack power/generation is pretty valid too. Someone like Yideng or Huang Yaoshi probably could never match the sheer power of XL18Z produced by the other Greats, even if they could diffuse it enough to dodge/block/not be seriously hurt from it. Their finger techniques are superior of course, but they would not be able to overwhelm someone as easily even though their inner strength is equal to Hong Qi Gong, just as Hong would not be able to cure people with his inner strength or strike at acupoints as accurately and swiftly as them.

Guo Jing in my mind will win against every Great pre-16 Yearsif they were forced to fight it out. I'm not even sure what the arguments are anymore, but my opinion is Guo Jing is no more than 5-10% better than the rest of the Greats when considering total martial arts package. I also reasonably see him as only possessing anywhere from 80-95% of their inner strength.

[ChronoReverse]

@islandmaster108
This is the problem. You're focusing on one tiny detail of my entire set of points and pretending that refutes the whole.


For instance, the one hand issue. Let's say that GJ really didn't need both hands and that the narration here about him being at an disadvantage because he was using one hand is wrong. There's still the footing issue, GJ being worried about the innocents issue and the fact GJ had not pushed to the 13th power level issue!


The arrow part is even worse. You say that GWM needs a full draw to infuse while GJ doesn't. Very good, you can't read! Because that's precisely what I was saying. And because GWM had time to do a full draw, can't you say that both infused chi? Furthermore, there's still the part about GWM's utter failure when the arrow smashed the bow right out of his hands.


And as for single point attack... no kidding? It's not even the issue. If the attack power is the same then the only thing that matters is who can fire off the attacks for the longest (hint, it's GJ with the power conserving 9 Yin). But aside from that, the fact they deadlocked into a pure internal energy battle means that this doesn't even matter. YG's far superior technique didn't mean jack squat when he was forced into an internal energy duel with GWM. Likewise, once GJ was locked into an internal energy battle, if his internal energy was really less than 95% (that is, smaller in a significant way), he'd quickly be in trouble.



@tape

Guo Jing in my mind will win against every Great pre-16 Yearsif they were forced to fight it out. I'm not even sure what the arguments are anymore, but my opinion is Guo Jing is no more than 5-10% than the rest of the Greats when considering total martial arts package, but I can also reasonably see him as only possessing anywhere from 80-95% of their inner strength.

That can certainly be true of course (and in reality what I believe). But your examples of ZCS and young GJ are not really valid because in those situations it's always shown how they were having trouble or will certainly lose if it goes long enough. Even then there are various degrees of difficulty that's always mentioned.

However, for the GJ vs OYF fight, there's every indication that in a prolonged fight on a level surface, not only would GJ not have trouble but GJ would in fact overcome OYF. Even if I'm generous and say it remains a tie, that's no indication that GJ's internal energy would be meaningfully less.

Proud Dragon Repents specifically is the circle drawing one I mentioned, so I brought it up unless I'm misremembering.

That is correct. However, it was used with two arms by XF and H7G. Recall XF's super long ranged triple melded LDA.

And the point about inner strength not being equal to attack power/generation is pretty valid too. Someone like Yideng or Huang Yaoshi probably could never match the sheer power of XL18Z produced by the other Greats, even if they could diffuse it enough to dodge/block/not be seriously hurt from it.

Arguably, any fully extended and fully powered attack from any Great can not be safely faced head on even by another Great. Recall GWM not daring to take a finger blast from Yideng (and people are convinced that Yideng will lose to GWM!)

[Ren Wo Xing]

To add on to what Chrono said, keep in mind that even at the end of LOCH, Guo Jing was able to withstand a 100% full powered XL18Z from HQG while using the same technique, indicating that his internal energy had reached a level which was definitely approaching Greats-level. Considering the benefits from 9Yin over the next decade and a half, it would be very hard to imagine him 'still' being inferior to OYF & co...and indeed, that is not borne out by the text.

[islandmaster108]

I forgot to address a few more points, There is no quote that indicates that OYF cannot gauge GJ's power. OYF saids that it is difficult for GJ to recover in 7 days. I believe he refers to his internal energy recovery. When, Old bat Ki attack OYF in the monestary, it is within 24 hours after the injury, giving GJ 1 extra day to recover. And OYF is worried that HR will come before the 7 days time for him to recover, not that he can only recover enough to defeat HR in 7 days.

About internal energy and attack power is often shown, GJ in LOCH had barely 2 years of QZ not 9 yin internal trainning, but his palm attack is very strong. While imagine Yi Deng for example, Can you imagine him produce a palm attack power equals to XL18Z? this shows that external technique and to certain extend body strength have certain effect to attack power but not the internal energy level. The growth of internal energy is not proportion to attack power, it is only one of the factor, A big one I admit.

I make the assumption about the hand breaking from this. I believe someone in the forum says their is a limit to LDA attack distance. we know that internal energy have more effect in LDA than in a close contact battle. Even so the distance is limited no matter how high your energy is. Why? It is because their is a limit to how much energy one can unleash in a single moment. If not the distance can be anything.