My reflections on Yeung Gor (by hoatran)

[Ken Cheng]

Man should realise that fiction does not equal reality.

Man can't fly just because Superman can.

Not Jerry Siegel's or Superman's fault, if man couldn't see that.

Flying is a physical feat. There is no innate merit of character judgment attached to it for there to be a double-standard.

The analogy doesn't work.

With Yeung Gor, people need to have a huge appetite for double standards.

[kidd]

No matter what, it's still the reader/viewer's own fault to believe that standard in TV and real life is the same or should be the same.

When this happen, there's no one to blame but the person who can't separate fiction from reality. It's not the character's fault, not the author's fault, not other people's fault, but, that person's own damn fault.

Yeah, go f*k Yeung Gor and Little Dragon Girl again in your haters club.

[Bangs]

Man does it in a wuxia story, and he's a "great romantic." Man does it in real life, and he's a "great fool."

I hate double standards in general and I hate this one in particular.

This is actually similar to GJ's situation when he decided to defend the city and died trying instead of taking his family to safety and lead a peaceful life of happiness. What GJ did is noble yet foolish in real life standards.

[Ken Cheng]

No matter what, it's still the reader/viewer's own fault to believe that standard in TV and real life is the same or should be the same.

It matters. In fiction, physical laws and feats can be as different as one pleases, but the MORAL fabric of both universes must be consistent or...why are heroes, heroes and villains, villains?

[Ken Cheng]

This is actually similar to GJ's situation when he decided to defend the city and died trying instead of taking his family to safety and lead a peaceful life of happiness. What GJ did is noble yet foolish in real life standards.

In Gwok Jing's case, I think he can be fairly judged both ways. He was a hero for his sacrifice, but also a fool for not saving himself and his.

[Candide]

Can't blame Yang Guo for the Lu Wushuang (?) incident. Chicks wet their panties over that kind of treatment.

[tape]

So have we agreed that Yang Guo didn't really do anything wrong/different from what any person would do in real life ?

If you were a handsome, skilled adolescent, wouldn't you be hitting on girls and generally being irresponsible with regards to smaller matters ? In the important matters, he shows rather impressive and responsible behavior. Only Guo Jing and Qiao Feng make him look bad; otherwise he is more heroic than you can hope for given his upbringing.

[Ken Cheng]

So have we agreed that Yang Guo didn't really do anything wrong/different from what any person would do in real life ?

No, we haven't...and we never will (or should). It would upset the already delicate balance of the universe.

[kidd]

So have we agreed that Yang Guo didn't really do anything wrong/different from what any person would do in real life ?

Except for that incident with Yelu Qi.

[pannonian]

To be fair to HR, she only withheld teaching martial arts to YG. In fact, I think she centred her teachings on ethics and knowledge, with the excuse that this was relevant as GJ's second teacher was a so-called scholar. So you can't really blame HR for his lack of ethics and moral values as these was what she centred on teaching.

That's not what she promised to teach though. Whatever values Huang Rong was teaching, the one most evident to Yang Guo would have been deceit. Similarly with Zhao Zhijing later on. Guo Jing was direct and plain with him, so Yang Guo included him in the list of people who loved him. Until he saw Huang Rong's heroism in practice, she was for him a Zhao Zhijing type, a hypocrite who said one thing and did another.

[Cesare]

I still am not quite sure what your exact point is, since all main characters get this preferential treatment where their actions are from their point of view and rarely are they misunderstood.

Sure. Main characters usually (not always) do get this sort of preferential treatment. But it can be overdone or done badly. Which IMHO is the case with XLN and YG.
To use a formulation I already used elsewhere in an attemt to explain what so rubs me the wrong way about YG (and to an extent about XLN as well) - he has I AM SUPPOSED TO BE LIKED, SO *LIKE* ME written in big red ostentatious letters across his forehead. My reaction to that is "Go fcuk yourself". Everything connected with YG and XLN is somehow histrionic; and something about them rings false and mary-sueish to me.

...
BTW - I agree with those of you who have pointed it out that the example with Lu Wushuang was badly chosen - and somewhat off the mark. My mistake.

[hoatran]

Man does it in a wuxia story, and he's a "great romantic." Man does it in real life, and he's a "great fool."

I hate double standards in general and I hate this one in particular.

Duh... It's a novel man! Otherwise it would be a non-fiction! But other than throwing the Passion flower pill down the cliff, I can't think of anything else he did that is far from what a normal person in his situation might have done. On the other hand, there are things that I would have behaved worse than him if I was in his shoes, like I would still rescue Quo Fu, but I would be a lot more arrogant about it. Like after deflect Qiu Qianchi's iron date stone, Yang Guo should have told Guo Fu that he did not try to rescue her, he was just showing off his kung fu prowess. A good way to get an enemy? Sure, but why not? She cut off his arm. And such behavior would fit better with his character.

[hoatran]

he has I AM SUPPOSED TO BE LIKED, SO *LIKE* ME written in big red ostentatious letters across his forehead.

I did not get such vibe from the novel at all. On the other hand, I felt that he was prepared to take an inferior hand dealt to him if needed. For example, when he and XLN were captured and got the Passion flower all over him, he thought to himself, even if XLN was forced to marry Gongsun, he would still try to rescue her, and presumably will be with her afterward. So he was not only prepared to be with her when she was pure, but he would be with her after she was violated as well. There was other example as well, like he did not force himself on Yingo or the Urchin to get his way.

[Ken Cheng]

I did not get such vibe from the novel at all. On the other hand, I felt that he was prepared to take an inferior hand dealt to him if needed. For example, when he and XLN were captured and got the Passion flower all over him, he thought to himself, even if XLN was forced to marry Gongsun, he would still try to rescue her, and presumably will be with her afterward. So he was not only prepared to be with her when she was pure, but he would be with her after she was violated as well. There was other example as well, like he did not force himself on Yingo or the Urchin to get his way.

You're still missing the point: it's not how Yeung Gor relates to other characters in the story, but how Jin Yong relates him to the audience. As Cesare has reiterated, the character *demands* the reading audience to like him (or perhaps I should say the author demands the reading audience to like him), but doesn't give sufficient reason within the character to do so. Yeung Gor's appeal to audiences, more so than most other protagonists, seems very contrived and forced.

If you're not familiar with the term, go look up "Mary Sue" (or sometimes "Marty Stu" or "Gary Stu" for male characters), and maybe you'll understand what we're getting at. This is the bane of fiction writers. It's sometimes expected of amateur fanfiction writers, but for a professional...nay, an iconic writer such as Jin Yong, it's a bit embarrassing.

[Ken Cheng]

Duh... It's a novel man! Otherwise it would be a non-fiction!

There's well-rendered fiction, and there's poorly-rendered fiction. A key component of fiction is characterization. In effective characterization, the critically-minded reader can buy into a character; in ineffective characterization, that same reader cannot or experiences great difficulty in buying into the character.

Among Jin Yong protagonists (and protagonists in general), Yeung Gor is notoriously difficult to buy into. Yeung Gor is (more than other protagonists) a "Mary Sue" character: Jin Yong tries *way* too hard to make him "cool," and as a consequence, actually achieves the opposite effect.

[Cesare]

it's not how Yeung Gor relates to other characters in the story, but how Jin Yong relates him to the audience.

Thanks to Ken for expressing so eloquently what I was trying to say.

[hoatran]

There's well-rendered fiction, and there's poorly-rendered fiction. A key component of fiction is characterization. In effective characterization, the critically-minded reader can buy into a character; in ineffective characterization, that same reader cannot or experiences great difficulty in buying to the character.

Among Jin Yong protagonists (and protagonists in general), Yeung Gor is notoriously difficult to buy into. Yeung Gor is (more than other protagonists) a "Mary Sue" character: Jin Yong tries *way* too hard to make him "cool," and as a consequence, actually achieves the opposite effect.

Hmm... So it's not the character that was the problem, it was how the author made the character that was the problem. I got to think about this...

[hoatran]

You're still missing the point: it's not how Yeung Gor relates to other characters in the story, but how Jin Yong relates him to the audience. As Cesare has reiterated, the character *demands* the reading audience to like him (or perhaps I should say the author demands the reading audience to like him), but doesn't give sufficient reason within the character to do so. Yeung Gor's appeal to audiences, more so than most other protagonists, seems very contrived and forced.

OK. I gave it some thought, and I even looked up the definition of Mary Sue to make sure that I understand what you meant. But I have never idolize a fictional character. You can never get the kind of opportunities and luck these guys get, whether it's Asian or Western character. Did Yang Guo have a more perfect characterization than others? Maybe, maybe not. But I do like the fact that right off the bat, Yin Jong had XLN suffered shock, while practicing Jade Manual naked, and had to totally depended on Yang Guo to bring her back to the ancient tomb. Then she was chased out of her place, and got raped. That was like humanizing a perfect character, bringing an angel down to the human level. Similarly, Yang Guo at the end became a great master, at the pinnacle of the wuxia society. But he was a great master with one arm. Yin Jong admitted that this was a tale with some very great lucky chances. But whose novel with happy ending did not have such lucky chances for the main characters? Was it more contrive than others? You let me know. But you can have either a character with not so fortune, but encountered some lucky chances and ended up great, or characters with better fortunes met some unfortunate events, but still had enough lucky chances to end up great. Huang Rong started out with some great fortunes, smart, beautiful, daughter of a great wuxia master, ended up well, but had to marry Guo Jing, a flawed hero. So Yang Guo and XLN were the perfect couple ended up a damaged couple (one armed man, once raped woman). It was not so far from a conventional way to write a novel at all - in my opinion. Just a different variation of it.

[ByTmE]

Huang Rong started out with some great fortunes, smart, beautiful, daughter of a great wuxia master, ended up well, but had to marry Guo Jing, a flawed hero. So Yang Guo and XLN were the perfect couple ended up a damaged couple (one armed man, once raped woman). It was not so far from a conventional way to write a novel at all - in my opinion. Just a different variation of it.

Sorry, don't mean to but into y'alls conversation. I don't think Guo Jing represents a flawed hero. If anything, as a hero archetype, he was damn near exemplary. Huang Rong, on the other hand, was only superficially perfect. Her greatest "deficit" was a character one. While many of us love her witty banters and mischievous antics, it's clear that she harbored wicked intentions. After meeting and marrying Guo Jing, they both had an "upgrade" of sorts. Neither was better than the other, their virtues and even vices lay in areas in which complemented one another.

In addition, citing YG and XLN as a damaged couple by averring to his missing arm and her rape, is [frankly] specious reasoning. Neither quality damaged them very much. Yang Guo became a master anyway and XLN moved passed her assault. Though we may see both instances as being "damaging", but to the characters themselves, it's obvious they didn't see themselves as being any less or different than other individuals or couples. According to the novel, it seemed this couple emerged triumphant in the end. XLN, I don't really have an opinion for. However for Yang Guo, it was clear from the very beginning the story that he would always emerge the victor regardless of the obstacle in front of him.

I rather prefer a likable hero where, after facing the obstacles put before him, is humbled in the process. YG didn't really fit the bill for me in that respect. He just kept getting greater and GREATER and more and MORE FAMOUS especially because of the rebel attitude. No one and no obstacle ever took this guy down a couple of notches. With the exception of Guo Fu, no one ever really fails to accommodate to him.

[hoatran]

That is one of the aspects of what I'm talking about. My fave example...:
YG meets a random chick. YG has a private vendetta thingy going on. Random chick's eyes (or something) reminds him of GuGu. He's a pikin' idjit, so he puts a good guy's life at risk for a pair of pretty eyes.

I disagree. He gave Yelu Qi a problem, a challenge, threw a stick into Yelu Qi's smooth running wheel. Yang Guo did not teach Wanyan Ping a move to kill Yelu Qi. He simply taught Wanyan Ping a move to challenge Yelu Qi's promise, to see what kind of man Yelu Qi's was. For Yelu Qi's to be killed or not, it was Yelu Qi's decision, not Yang Guo, not Wanyan Ping. Besides, Yang Guo did not really who Yelu Qi was. Remember, he only knew Yelu Qi's brother as a Mongol official. So what if Yelu Qi's let Wanyan Ping go? If Yang Kang let Mu Nianci walked out of his palace, then he was automatically a good guy, that none can question his promise? Besides it was actually Wanyan Ping's life is more at risk than Yelu Qi's. If you say Yang Guo was playing with someone's life, it was Wanyan Ping's life that he was playing with. Yelu Qi's get to decide whether Wanyan Ping kill him or not, or in another word, Yelu Qi's life was in his hand. But it was Wanyan Ping's life was not in her hand. If Yelu Qi's decided not to risk his life, then he could easily let Wanyan Ping ploy to cause her own death.

Now - in a way, I'd so like to see Yelu Qi die that day (despite the fact I genuinely like the character), so that YG would have to deal with the consequences of being a jackass.
Yelu Qi or Guo Jing did survive his major screw-ups. When YG behaves like a jackass, it generally doesn't lead to disaster - not because he's less of a jackass than for example HR or Hao Datong, but because he's effin' LUCKY.
JY kind of tends to spare YG any serious consequences of his screw ups

Jin Yong did spare HR and Guo Fu of their screw ups. Despite HR thought about how awful and ironic it was that HR and GJ had to fight for their love, and she was going to trick Yang Guo and XLN to leave each other, her psychological word almost caused XLN to die alone by herself on a remote hill side if she was not rescued by Gonshun Zhi, caused Yang Guo to almost die in the Passionless valley, and for Yang Guo to be severely poisoned by the Passion flower. Ken said these consequences were more of the results of Yang Guo's, XLN's decision more than what HR did, but that's not any different than what Yelu Qi's decision having to do with what Yang Guo decided to teach Wanyan Ping. At least JY had Wanyan Ping told Yang Guo that he probably had guessed that Wanyan Ping could not go through with the killing of Yelu Qi's. Did he have HR thinking that her ploy might not work? And Guo Fu chopping Yang Guo's arm off. I did not read either HR or Guo Fu owning up to these things that they did.

but he makes sure that other people's screw ups have truly serious and often irredeemable consequences - preferably such consequences as further complications in the central romance.
If Guo Fu had YG's luck, she would barely scratch him instead of chopping off an arm.

As for YG doing ugly things yet never really getting to look ugly - for example, he spends considerable time bullying Lu Wushuang, simply because her face is somewhat reminiscent of GuGu's when she's angry. Most of the time, you get HIS perspective. To him it is more or less a play (aaand he misses his GuGu, poor sod). He's being a bully and yet he never comes out of it *smelling* like a bully. You don't get much of LWS angsting over being treated with so much disrespect. Her displays of indignation are fairly inconsequential. She winds up being a member of YG's fanclub, anyway.

Right. But in the story, you also had Guo Fu who was also bullied by Yang Guo and Yang Guo ended up having his arm chopped by Guo Fu. He got away with one, but not with the other. How realistic???

As for his unfair judgment of others - the Guo couple and QZ come to mind. Not saying Huang Rong or QZ sect didn't mess up, but YG is being very unfair with them at certain points. They are being unfair to him, yes, but they do get to bear their share of disgrace.

How was he unfair to them? I thought he was much more generous to them then they to him. He did not pursue them (the two priests who discovered him and XLN practice naked) for Granny Sun's death. Then once Hao Datong owned up to his mistake, Yang Guo did not pursued it again. Then once Zhen Zhibing owned up to his crime against XLN, Yang Guo and XLN did not pursue it further. But on the other hand, Sun Bu'er told Zhao to "kill" Yang Guo, the whole sect was suspecting/preparing to fight with the ancient tomb sect because their perceived that Yang Guo and XLN might make their move against them, made no effort to extend any hand to the harms that they and Zhen Zhibing did to XNL, only to offer their medicinal pill when they needed to ask XLN for the Jade bee's honey.

Regarding to HR, it was even worse. Suspecting that Yang Guo made a date with Guo Xiang on her birthday, what did HR do to prepare to go meet Yang Guo? Did she prepare to call on Yang Guo's sense of decency? No. She went back to her room to get herself her secret weapons, blades, and her short stick. On the other hand, when did Yang Guo even let HR or Guo Fu to be harm if he could help it?

And before anyone mentions how YG is not viewed favorably by this or that prominent person in jianghu - that is not the point. YG gets to cope with quite a lot of disgrace as a person, but not as a character - and YG as a character in a story is what I am talking about.

As a character, I thought it was not that perfect. There was a lot of trade offs with his character. But I'll write it in another post.