Why didn't Xiao Feng consult Duan Yu on the Dragon Palms?

[athlee]

- Ok, the LBWB is a high-level footwork, but most probably not the best lightness skill of Xiaoyao School.

Once again, I repeat, you have nothing that says this.

- There's no direct comparison b/w the LBWB and the lightness skill of XZ and TSTL but judging from the descriptions, XZ was more elegant and faster than DY when he was using his lightness skill. DY's feet seemed to have always touched the ground but XZ looked like flying most of the time. As for TSLT and LQS, they were so fast that that XZ couldn't differentiate them from each other when they were fighting. DY, whose internal energy should be comparable to theirs, never reached that level of speed.

虚竹乘着双枪抖动之势，飞身跃起，半空中便向洪基头顶扑落。一如游鱼之滑，一如飞鸟之捷
Xuzhu took advantage of the momenta of the two spears and jumped up. While he was in mid air he plunged towards Hongji's vertex. One was difficult to hold like a fish (i.e Duan Yu), one was agile like a flying bird (i.e Xuzhu).

虚竹见二人身手之快，当真是匪夷所思，哪里分得出谁是童姥，谁是李秋水？
Xuzhu found the movements of the two of them really unimaginably fast and could not tell who was Tonglao and who was Li Qiushui.

First I want to ask, who left BMSG and LBWB for DY to find? The edition I read was LQS, but I am not sure if it was changed. Did the novel state what footwork they used? Or did it specifically say it was not LBWB?

Second, where were they fighting when XZ was said to be unable to differentiate between the two? In the dark ice chamber where ones eyesight will be compromised?

Third, I don't really agree on your translation of 一如飞鸟之捷. In the earlier sentence, XZ was plunging towards YLHQ, wouldn't it then be more natural to translate 捷 as fast instead of agile/nimble? 捷 can mean either, but the previous sentence already has XZ plunging towards YLHQ, how can one be nimble/agile while plunging anywhere?

- Knowledge of the Book of Changes did help DY a lot when he was learning the LBWB. W/o knowing the 64 hexagrams and their positions beforehand, it'd have taken him a much longer time. Moreover, he didn't master the footwork in 2 days. It took him almost a week just to get fairly used to it.

这般练了数日，‘凌波微步’已走得颇为纯熟
After practicing like this for a few days, he was already fairly familiar w/ the 'LBWB'

It would have been the same if he didn't know the positions but someone was telling him (aka teach) the positions. The sequence of steps was described as 但有时卷轴上步法甚怪. Is sequence also part of the Book of Changes? Also LBWB is not only about the positions:

凌波微步’每一步踏出，全身行动与内力息息相关，决非单是迈步行走而已

DY could learned the LMSJ in a short time b/c he was already familiar with the channels and the acupuncture points in his arms as a result of practicing the BMSG. And what he did was memorizing most of the theory. He never mastered the technique. I don't care about what JY said on a whim in his interviews, but this is what he wrote in the novel:

他自不知段誉记不明白六路剑法中这许多繁复的招式
He [Jiumozhi] himself did not know that DY did not remember clearly these many complicated stances of the LMSJ

- The internal technique of the Duan clan that DY learned was merely a technique to disperse the internal energy in his chest into his internal organs. At no point in the novel did he have full control of his internal energy.

说道：“誉儿，我教你导气归虚的法门。”
[Duan Zhengming] said: 'Yu'er, I'll teach you a channeling technique to disperse internal energy.'

And how long did DY spend learning BMSG? 1 or 2 days?

Also, that occurred on the day DY learned 6MSJ. Months after TSTL died, XZ was still using 30% against JMZ.

Plus, later in the fight with MRF, he was performing the stances reasonably well.
段誉百余招拆将下来，畏惧之心渐去，记起伯父和天龙寺枯荣大师所传的内功心法，将那六脉神剑使得渐渐的圆转 融通。

- XZ never made any fast progress in his study of Shaolin martial arts. That perhaps was because he's not a martial arts genius and he was more interested in learning Buddhism. But he was said to have a very good memory. There's no way he's any slower than DY in learning new techniques. And when it comes to applying them in actual situations, he's way ahead of DY.

总算他记心甚好，于苏星河所授的诸般不同医疗法门，居然记得清清楚楚
After all, his memory was very good. No one would have expected him to remember clearly all kinds of healing methods that Su Xinghe taught him.

Earlier you were saying XZ absorb new techniques pretty fast (I disagreed, re: 9 and 10). Now you are saying he isn't a martials arts genius, please clarify where you stand now.

There's no difference b/w DY being obsessed w/ just WYY or being obsessed w/ many girls. The thing is, in XF's eyes he was probably just a weak-minded guy who could easily get bossed around by beautiful girls. XZ never gave other people such a negative impression.

Then can I say that because you are in love with one girl, you are in love with many girls?

XF thought no such thing in the novel about DY.

Last of all, I repeat, I also think XZ is a better user of martial arts when all is said and done. But XL28/18P is a skill thought to the Beggar Sect Chief, it was thought to XZ so that he can pass it on to the new chief once chosen. Why would being better at using it be a criteria?

Actually, now that I read the original post, we both agreed XZ is the better choice, just for completely different and opposite reasons.

[forgot password]

Once again, I repeat, you have nothing that says this.

First I want to ask, who left BMSG and LBWB for DY to find? The edition I read was LQS, but I am not sure if it was changed. Did the novel state what footwork they used? Or did it specifically say it was not LBWB?

Second, where were they fighting when XZ was said to be unable to differentiate between the two? In the dark ice chamber where ones eyesight will be compromised?

Third, I don't really agree on your translation of 一如飞鸟之捷. In the earlier sentence, XZ was plunging towards YLHQ, wouldn't it then be more natural to translate 捷 as fast instead of agile/nimble? 捷 can mean either, but the previous sentence already has XZ plunging towards YLHQ, how can one be nimble/agile while plunging anywhere?

It would have been the same if he didn't know the positions but someone was telling him (aka teach) the positions. The sequence of steps was described as 但有时卷轴上步法甚怪. Is sequence also part of the Book of Changes? Also LBWB is not only about the positions:

凌波微步’每一步踏出，全身行动与内力息息相关，决非单是迈步行走而已

And how long did DY spend learning BMSG? 1 or 2 days?

Also, that occurred on the day DY learned 6MSJ. Months after TSTL died, XZ was still using 30% against JMZ.

Plus, later in the fight with MRF, he was performing the stances reasonably well.
段誉百余招拆将下来，畏惧之心渐去，记起伯父和天龙寺枯荣大师所传的内功心法，将那六脉神剑使得渐渐的圆转 融通。

Earlier you were saying XZ absorb new techniques pretty fast (I disagreed, re: 9 and 10). Now you are saying he isn't a martials arts genius, please clarify where you stand now.

Then can I say that because you are in love with one girl, you are in love with many girls?

XF thought no such thing in the novel about DY.

Last of all, I repeat, I also think XZ is a better user of martial arts when all is said and done. But XL28/18P is a skill thought to the Beggar Sect Chief, it was thought to XZ so that he can pass it on to the new chief once chosen. Why would being better at using it be a criteria?

Actually, now that I read the original post, we both agreed XZ is the better choice, just for completely different and opposite reasons.

- As the only differences b/w their sets of martial arts were the XWXG, the Tianshan 6 yang Palm, the BMSG, the White Rainbow Palm and the I Reign Supreme technique, LQS and TSTL were probably using the same lightness skill. XZ learned his lightness skill from TSLT and it looked different from the LBWB of DY therefore most probably what LQS and TSLT were using was not the LBWB. LQS left the LBWB in the cave yet she never used it, which means her lightness skill is most probably a better one.

- They were fighting in the ice cellar but there was a torch and don't forget XZ had extremely good internal energy, which should enhance his eyesight.

- I used the word 'agile' - 'being able to move quickly and easily' [Longman Dict] not for that sentence alone, but for the whole paragraph in which he charged towards Hongji, beat some of the guarding soldiers, leaped over them, beat Hongji while still being in the air, and successfully captured him.

- DY only learned two or three channels in the arm, he did not learn the whole of the BMSG. The internal energy technique of the Duan clan he learned was only for dispersing internal energy. You can't concentrate or develop your internal energy using it.

- Of course the sequences of the hexagrams are a part of the Book of Changes (at least the version I read). I don't know what kind of sequence the LBWB was based on, but it'd take a lot of time for a person who knows nothing about the Book of Changes to understand the hexagrams and memorize the popular sequence of King Wen.

- 但有时卷轴上步法甚怪: In the paragraph containing this sentence, it was said that the order of the steps was totally based on the Book of Changes. What '甚怪' meant was that sometimes it was very hard for the user to step according to the sequence b/c some kinds of unnatural changes of directions or movements were required.

- At the beginning of the fight against JMZ XZ was using 20% of his power but don't forget that was the 1st time he had ever fought against such a powerful opponent in a straight-up fight therefore he was lacking real-fight experience, and it was also said that prior to that fight he had hardly practiced Xiaoyao martial arts. During the fight his use of martial arts got better and better at a quick rate and towards the end of it he was able to have the upper hand over JMZ. In the fight against DCQ later on the same day, his efficiency jumped to 70%. Compare this to DY's efficiency and progress?

- A martial arts genius was someone like XF who was said to be able to master [i.e not just memorize] everything in one go. XZ was not a martial arts genius but he doesn't need to be one to be a fast learner. There're quite a few textual evidences (Su Xinghe, TSTL, etc.) to support this.

- DY was not merely in love, he was obsessed w/ a girl. XF's thoughts of DY was never described in the novel but JY specifically wrote that he disliked mushy stuff, and when they were going to Xixia, XF saw with his own eyes how DY frequently got entangled with girls. Needless to say, prior to that, he also saw how DY's adoptive father tended to be bossed around by women. Like father like son.

[athlee]

- As the only differences b/w their sets of martial arts were the XWXG, the Tianshan 6 yang Palm, the BMSG, the White Rainbow Palm and the I Reign Supreme technique, LQS and TSTL were probably using the same lightness skill. XZ learned his lightness skill from TSLT and it looked different from the LBWB of DY therefore most probably what LQS and TSLT were using was not the LBWB. LQS left the LBWB in the cave yet she never used it, which means her lightness skill is most probably a better one.

There are plenty of possible reasons why a person does not learn a particular skill, it is not necessary because they had a better one. LQS also did not learn BMSG when she had the manual, does that mean that XWXG is better? In fact, the likelihood is that they all had access to the same set of skills, certainly TSTL had access to BMSG, does that mean that her Supreme skill is better than BMSG? Considering that she is the oldest and started learning at age 6, the art that she would learn is likely to be one as a result of either, she was either allowed to chose among the list, or her master told her what to learn. Whichever it is, whether she chose or was told, the same thing must have happened for WYZ and LQS.

Another way of looking at it is this; Xuanci knew several of the 72 arts (cannot remember how many, it might have been only 1), why did he chose to learn those first? Why not something else? If we take your reasoning, then his must be better, but it was clearly not, all 72 had different strengths and weaknesses and the choice of arts could be either because they were told which to learn, a particular art appealed to them or suited their character. The same should be true of the arts that LQS, WYZ and TSTL had access to.

- They were fighting in the ice cellar but there was a torch and don't forget XZ had extremely good internal energy, which should enhance his eyesight.

Not to the extent that they can see better in the dark.

- I used the word 'agile' - 'being able to move quickly and easily' [Longman Dict] not for that sentence alone, but for the whole paragraph in which he charged towards Hongji, beat some of the guarding soldiers, leaped over them, beat Hongji while still being in the air, and successfully captured him.

XZ charged, beat up and jumped, none of which fits your definition of being able to move quickly and easily. I can do the same thing in a field full of gnome statues and I do not need good footwork to do so and I certainly do not call myself agile. Temujin has also translated the final chapter previously and this is how he translated this part;

So one was as sliperry as an eel and the other one was as fast as a flying bird, within no time at all Toan Ki (DUAN YU) and Hi Tiok (XU ZHU) had attacked very near the Liao Emperor.
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...?t=8926&page=4

Can anyone else (The English Teacher cum Moderator perhaps?) comment on whether you would use agile or fast in the situation?

- DY only learned two or three channels in the arm, he did not learn the whole of the BMSG. The internal energy technique of the Duan clan he learned was only for dispersing internal energy. You can't concentrate or develop your internal energy using it.

And yet you said this: DY could learned the LMSJ in a short time b/c he was already familiar with the channels and the acupuncture points in his arms as a result of practicing the BMSG.

- Of course the sequences of the hexagrams are a part of the Book of Changes (at least the version I read). I don't know what kind of sequence the LBWB was based on, but it'd take a lot of time for a person who knows nothing about the Book of Changes to understand the hexagrams and memorize the popular sequence of King Wen.

This is bookwork, not martial arts.

- At the beginning of the fight against JMZ XZ was using 20% of his power but don't forget that was the 1st time he had ever fought against such a powerful opponent in a straight-up fight therefore he was lacking real-fight experience, and it was also said that prior to that fight he had hardly practiced Xiaoyao martial arts. During the fight his use of martial arts got better and better at a quick rate and towards the end of it he was able to have the upper hand over JMZ. In the fight against DCQ later on the same day, his efficiency jumped to 70%. Compare this to DY's efficiency and progress?

And the comment you raised by JMZ was from a time when DY had just finished learning and had absolutely never used 6MSJ before. Also, in terms of real-fight experience, XZ should at least have had spars during his time in Shaolin, while DY at that point had absolutely no real-fight or spars to base on.

And on progress, I give to you once more, 段誉百余招拆将下来，畏惧之心渐去，记起伯父和天龙寺枯荣大师所传的内功心法，将那六脉神剑使 得渐渐的圆转 融通。This was literally DY's first fight of any note in his life, i.e. beyond him executing 2 strokes and KO.

- A martial arts genius was someone like XF who was said to be able to master [i.e not just memorize] everything in one go. XZ was not a martial arts genius but he doesn't need to be one to be a fast learner. There're quite a few textual evidences (Su Xinghe, TSTL, etc.) to support this.

DY was also not a martial arts genius, but he was shown to be a fast learner of basically anything he sets his mind to. All your evidence on XZ being a fast learner is after his internal boost, but you have not addressed his time in Shaolin other than a vague shot that he was probably more interested in Buddhism. 20+ years and all he has for it is 2 skill set (can't remember what they were called, please refer to his fight with JMZ). The internal boost should not be looked down. Look at the QKDNY that ZMK learn. It was stated that normal people needed god knows how many years to learn each step, but he learn it in a day because of his internal.

DY was not merely in love, he was obsessed w/ a girl. XF's thoughts of DY was never described in the novel but JY specifically wrote that he disliked mushy stuff, and when they were going to Xixia, XF saw with his own eyes how DY frequently got entangled with girls. Needless to say, prior to that, he also saw how DY's adoptive father tended to be bossed around by women. Like father like son.

DY was obsessed, not objections there. Obsession is his flaw like I had already said. But XF considering DY as weak willed is purely your thoughts and speculation and is not supported in the novel.

Finally, care to address this?

Last of all, I repeat, I also think XZ is a better user of martial arts when all is said and done. But XL28/18P is a skill thought to the Beggar Sect Chief, it was thought to XZ so that he can pass it on to the new chief once chosen. Why would being better at using it be a criteria?

[kyss of the sword]

DY refused to learn martial arts because he got obsessed with other things but after he learnt LBWW, he got more interest in martial arts and learned seriously 6MDS but he was kidnapped before he could learn much. he managed to improve somehow by his own efforts to using the 6DMS after the shaolin episode. by the end, he had received proper teaching from his uncle and the elders of four dragon temple and become a proper great expert. however, his speciality was in accuipoint sealing(yiyang zhi) and sword techniques(6MDS). HL18Z was already a top palm skill and ony someone also specialized in palm skills could help improve it.

[forgot password]

There are plenty of possible reasons why a person does not learn a particular skill, it is not necessary because they had a better one. LQS also did not learn BMSG when she had the manual, does that mean that XWXG is better? In fact, the likelihood is that they all had access to the same set of skills, certainly TSTL had access to BMSG, does that mean that her Supreme skill is better than BMSG? Considering that she is the oldest and started learning at age 6, the art that she would learn is likely to be one as a result of either, she was either allowed to chose among the list, or her master told her what to learn. Whichever it is, whether she chose or was told, the same thing must have happened for WYZ and LQS.

Another way of looking at it is this; Xuanci knew several of the 72 arts (cannot remember how many, it might have been only 1), why did he chose to learn those first? Why not something else? If we take your reasoning, then his must be better, but it was clearly not, all 72 had different strengths and weaknesses and the choice of arts could be either because they were told which to learn, a particular art appealed to them or suited their character. The same should be true of the arts that LQS, WYZ and TSTL had access to.

Not to the extent that they can see better in the dark.

XZ charged, beat up and jumped, none of which fits your definition of being able to move quickly and easily. I can do the same thing in a field full of gnome statues and I do not need good footwork to do so and I certainly do not call myself agile. Temujin has also translated the final chapter previously and this is how he translated this part;

So one was as sliperry as an eel and the other one was as fast as a flying bird, within no time at all Toan Ki (DUAN YU) and Hi Tiok (XU ZHU) had attacked very near the Liao Emperor.
http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...?t=8926&page=4

Can anyone else (The English Teacher cum Moderator perhaps?) comment on whether you would use agile or fast in the situation?

And yet you said this: DY could learned the LMSJ in a short time b/c he was already familiar with the channels and the acupuncture points in his arms as a result of practicing the BMSG.

This is bookwork, not martial arts.

And the comment you raised by JMZ was from a time when DY had just finished learning and had absolutely never used 6MSJ before. Also, in terms of real-fight experience, XZ should at least have had spars during his time in Shaolin, while DY at that point had absolutely no real-fight or spars to base on.

And on progress, I give to you once more, 段誉百余招拆将下来，畏惧之心渐去，记起伯父和天龙寺枯荣大师所传的内功心法，将那六脉神剑使 得渐渐的圆转 融通。This was literally DY's first fight of any note in his life, i.e. beyond him executing 2 strokes and KO.

DY was also not a martial arts genius, but he was shown to be a fast learner of basically anything he sets his mind to. All your evidence on XZ being a fast learner is after his internal boost, but you have not addressed his time in Shaolin other than a vague shot that he was probably more interested in Buddhism. 20+ years and all he has for it is 2 skill set (can't remember what they were called, please refer to his fight with JMZ). The internal boost should not be looked down. Look at the QKDNY that ZMK learn. It was stated that normal people needed god knows how many years to learn each step, but he learn it in a day because of his internal.

DY was obsessed, not objections there. Obsession is his flaw like I had already said. But XF considering DY as weak willed is purely your thoughts and speculation and is not supported in the novel.

Finally, care to address this?

- LQS had learned the XWXG before she became the wife of WZY that's why she never learn the BMSG. Moreover, internal techniques like XWXG/BMSG/BHLHWWDZG take several decades to master, that's why there're only few people practicing more than 1 internal technique. But when a footwork/a lightness skill that could be mastered in a matter of weeks was overlooked or was not used in battle, the most likely reason for that was that it wasn't good enough.

- I don't think it's necessary to get Xuanci involved. An average learner like him has no bearing on this discussion about extremely talented martial arts users of Xiaoyao School.

- In the dark? Not really. As I said, there was a torch, whose light was more than enough for people of Xu Zhu's caliber. And don't forget TSTL was using just one leg, yet she was that fast.

- 'Move' doesn't only mean a change of position from A to B. One can stand at a place but at the same time can make movements with their arms, legs, etc.

- I just had a look at Temujin's translation. With all due respect, he translated from an Indonesian version of the 1st edition. The use of words like 'slippery' and 'eel' is incorrect. 游鱼 is 'a swimming fish' as opposed to 'flying bird' of Xu Zhu. And DY was not 'slippery', his skin was normal, he was just 'hard to catch'. I can't find a suitable English adjective to describe him. Words like 'elusive' or 'evasive' are better but still they don't fully express what JY meant.

- There's a big difference b/w 'learn' and 'master' - 'learn and become completely proficient in something'. DY merely learned most of the theory of the LMSJ and still he could not memorize everything. And he never 'mastered' this technique. In terms of memory, he's not better than Xu Zhu.

- The fight at Shaolin was not DY's first fight. It was like his 5th fight. It's too long for me to list all the occasions he used the LMSJ b/w the time he learned it at Tianlong Monastery and the fight at Shaolin, you can check by yourself. And don't forget when they were at Western Xia, after that so-called '1st fight', he still a novice at using the LMSJ. With the same amount of time lapsed, Xu Zhu transformed into a person who cannot be put at any disadvantage.

- Academic book or martial arts book doesn't matter. Thing is, the martial arts was based on the academic book. At the very least, a learner of the LBWB needs to completely memorize the names and sequence of the hexagrams and need to be able to recall them in an instant. I'd like to see a normal person who knows nothing about the Book of Changes to do so in a couple of days.

- Yes, DY have a good memory and a fast learner of things he's interested in. But everything taken into account, XZ is the better learner. The huge internal energy sure helped XZ in learning martial arts, but it had almost nothing to do with him mastering medical techniques in short period of times.

- XF's thoughts were not shown, but throughout the novel, various other characters, who were way less straightforward than XF, felt disgusted w/ DY's attitude towards WYY. And XF also strongly disapproved of DZC's tendency to get entangled w/ women. By contrast, Xu Zhu was a solid guy. It'd be natural for XF to consider his brothers' attitudes towards women before he put his signature skills in the hands of one of them.

- Some proofs of Xu Zhu being a fast learner:

苏星河见他试演无误，脸露微笑，赞道：“掌门人记性极好，一学便会。”
Seeing him make no mistake in trial performances, Su Xinghe smiled and praised: 'Headmaster has a superb memory, being able to understand after learning one time.'

童姥甚喜，说道：“小……小子倒还不笨
Tonglao was very delighted and said: 'Boy... you're not stupid

童姥喜道：“小子倒也不笨，学得挺快
Tonglao said in delight: 'This boy is not stupid. You learn quite fast

[athlee]

- LQS had learned the XWXG before she became the wife of WZY that's why she never learn the BMSG. Moreover, internal techniques like XWXG/BMSG/BHLHWWDZG take several decades to master, that's why there're only few people practicing more than 1 internal technique. But when a footwork/a lightness skill that could be mastered in a matter of weeks was overlooked or was not used in battle, the most likely reason for that was that it wasn't good enough.

- I don't think it's necessary to get Xuanci involved. An average learner like him has no bearing on this discussion about extremely talented martial arts users of Xiaoyao School.

I don't want to continue on addressing how good LBWB is. You keep saying it isn't good enough, but give nothing in the novel on it. This is the last time I am addressing it in this thread:

这绸包一尺来长，白绸上写着几行细字：“汝既磕首千遍，自当供我驱策，终身无悔。此卷为我逍遥派武功精要，每日卯午酉三时，务须用心修习一次，若稍有懈惰，余将蹙眉痛心矣。神功既成，可至琅擐（‘扌’为‘女’） 福地遍阅诸般典籍，天下各门派武功家数尽集于斯，亦即尽为汝用。勉之勉之，学成下山，为余杀尽逍遥派弟子， 有一遗漏，余于天上地下耿耿长恨也。

On Xuanci, it isn't about how good he is, it is about your reasoning that since two people did not learn a skill, it must not be good enough.

- In the dark? Not really. As I said, there was a torch, whose light was more than enough for people of Xu Zhu's caliber. And don't forget TSTL was using just one leg, yet she was that fast.

At that point in time, XZ only had WYZ's internal and some teachings from TSTL. He was a far cry from the XZ who, even with all 3 elders internal and had studied the martial arts in TSTL's palace, was only able to use 30% of his skills when he fought JMZ. At that point, his caliber was below even Xuanci who you term average.

The use of words like 'slippery' and 'eel' is incorrect. 游鱼 is 'a swimming fish' as opposed to 'flying bird' of Xu Zhu. And DY was not 'slippery', his skin was normal, he was just 'hard to catch'. I can't find a suitable English adjective to describe him. Words like 'elusive' or 'evasive' are better but still they don't fully express what JY meant.

滑 is translated as slippery no matter where you look. Also, why are you being literal for 一如游鱼之滑, 一如飞鸟之捷? They are like the saying 貌美如花 used to describe a beautiful woman. Will you be saying that it cannot be used to describe people because their skin is normal and not like a flower?

- There's a big difference b/w 'learn' and 'master' - 'learn and become completely proficient in something'. DY merely learned most of the theory of the LMSJ and still he could not memorize everything. And he never 'mastered' this technique. In terms of memory, he's not better than Xu Zhu.

Learn - DY learned and remembered them, he just couldn't use it. I know the rules for tennis, hell, I can beat lots of people when I play it on console. But put me on a court and nine out of the ten people I play will trash me. Where did you find in the novel that DY has not memorized 6MSJ as opposed to mastering it?

Master - I have never said DY has mastered 6MSJ.

- The fight at Shaolin was not DY's first fight. It was like his 5th fight. It's too long for me to list all the occasions he used the LMSJ b/w the time he learned it at Tianlong Monastery and the fight at Shaolin, you can check by yourself. And don't forget when they were at Western Xia, after that so-called '1st fight', he still a novice at using the LMSJ. With the same amount of time lapsed, Xu Zhu transformed into a person who cannot be put at any disadvantage.

Okay, I will give you that it wasn't his first fight, but you are telling me XZ is less experienced than DY at fights? XZ has been learning martial arts his whole life, if you want to put a time period of their transformation, do it from the time they start learning.

- Academic book or martial arts book doesn't matter. Thing is, the martial arts was based on the academic book. At the very least, a learner of the LBWB needs to completely memorize the names and sequence of the hexagrams and need to be able to recall them in an instant. I'd like to see a normal person who knows nothing about the Book of Changes to do so in a couple of days.

And I would like to see a normal person learning TSTL's skill without an internal boost from a manual without her help.

- Yes, DY have a good memory and a fast learner of things he's interested in. But everything taken into account, XZ is the better learner. The huge internal energy sure helped XZ in learning martial arts, but it had almost nothing to do with him mastering medical techniques in short period of times.

What is taken into account? XZ learning martial arts his entire life without much progress? What else has XZ learn in his life prior to the internal boost? DY has been stated to be intelligent and fast learner, you try finding someone in real life life who plays go/weiqi who had progress as fast as he had.

[forgot password]

I don't want to continue on addressing how good LBWB is. You keep saying it isn't good enough, but give nothing in the novel on it. This is the last time I am addressing it in this thread:

这绸包一尺来长，白绸上写着几行细字：“汝既磕首千遍，自当供我驱策，终身无悔。此卷为我逍遥派武功精要，每日卯午酉三时，务须用心修习一次，若稍有懈惰，余将蹙眉痛心矣。神功既成，可至琅擐（‘扌’为‘女’） 福地遍阅诸般典籍，天下各门派武功家数尽集于斯，亦即尽为汝用。勉之勉之，学成下山，为余杀尽逍遥派弟子， 有一遗漏，余于天上地下耿耿长恨也。

On Xuanci, it isn't about how good he is, it is about your reasoning that since two people did not learn a skill, it must not be good enough.

At that point in time, XZ only had WYZ's internal and some teachings from TSTL. He was a far cry from the XZ who, even with all 3 elders internal and had studied the martial arts in TSTL's palace, was only able to use 30% of his skills when he fought JMZ. At that point, his caliber was below even Xuanci who you term average.

滑 is translated as slippery no matter where you look. Also, why are you being literal for 一如游鱼之滑, 一如飞鸟之捷? They are like the saying 貌美如花 used to describe a beautiful woman. Will you be saying that it cannot be used to describe people because their skin is normal and not like a flower?

Learn - DY learned and remembered them, he just couldn't use it. I know the rules for tennis, hell, I can beat lots of people when I play it on console. But put me on a court and nine out of the ten people I play will trash me. Where did you find in the novel that DY has not memorized 6MSJ as opposed to mastering it?

Master - I have never said DY has mastered 6MSJ.

Okay, I will give you that it wasn't his first fight, but you are telling me XZ is less experienced than DY at fights? XZ has been learning martial arts his whole life, if you want to put a time period of their transformation, do it from the time they start learning.

And I would like to see a normal person learning TSTL's skill without an internal boost from a manual without her help.

What is taken into account? XZ learning martial arts his entire life without much progress? What else has XZ learn in his life prior to the internal boost? DY has been stated to be intelligent and fast learner, you try finding someone in real life life who plays go/weiqi who had progress as fast as he had.

- You don’t want to keep discussing, then that’s your choice.

- Facts are, TSTL and XZ never used the LBWB, and with one leg, TSLT was still as fast as LQS. There’s no contradiction b/w ‘the LBWB is a high-level technique’ and ‘to people of TSLT and LQS’s caliber, the LBWB was not good enough for combat’. Moreover JY likened XZ to ‘a flying bird’ as opposed to DY’s ‘a swimming fish’. You can decide on your own which animal is the more agile and faster one.

- In Chinese the word 滑 have quite a few meanings, one of which is ‘slippery’, but it isn’t really suitable to translate it as ‘DY was slippery like a swimming fish’ b/c when applied to a person, ‘slippery’ means ‘evasive and unpredictable and not to be relied on’ (Oxford Dict.). DY was unpredictable and evasive in that situation, but he’s not the kind of guy who can’t be relied on. The other Chinese phrase of yours can be roughly translated as ‘being beautiful like a flower’.

- DY memorized a large part of but not all of the theory of the LMSJ. I already had this sentence in a previous post:
他自不知段誉记不明白六路剑法中这许多繁复的招式

- XZ was helped by WYZ’s internal energy, but TSLT herself praised him for being a fast learner.

- Prior to meeting WYZ, Xu Zhu had never been interested in learning martial arts. Actually he never was. It was said that he spent a large part of his time studying Buddhism. XZ had a better start in martial arts than DY but it's only marginal. Saying that he spent most of his life studying martial arts is an exaggeration.

苦笑道：“小僧平时多读佛经，小时又性爱嬉戏，没好好修练师父所授的内功，
[Xu Zhu] forced a smile and said: ‘I usually spend time reading Buddhist texts, and also like to play, so I haven’t practiced very well the internal energy technique that my master taught me,

- There’s another quote, but I can’t find it at the moment. I’ll add it to this post when I remember where it is.

[PJ]

I personally believe LBWB is the most sophisticated lightness kung fu in Jin Yong universe.

And I agree that Duan Yu is more intelligent, but he was way behind Xuzhu in mastery of MA. He simply didn't have interest in MA (and that is why JY allowed him to learn all the advanced arts, part of the DGSD Irony).

[athlee]

I personally believe LBWB is the most sophisticated lightness kung fu in Jin Yong universe.

And I agree that Duan Yu is more intelligent, but he was way behind Xuzhu in mastery of MA. He simply didn't have interest in MA (and that is why JY allowed him to learn all the advanced arts, part of the DGSD Irony).

My thoughts exactly.

- You don’t want to keep discussing, then that’s your choice.

- Facts are, TSTL and XZ never used the LBWB, and with one leg, TSLT was still as fast as LQS. There’s no contradiction b/w ‘the LBWB is a high-level technique’ and ‘to people of TSLT and LQS’s caliber, the LBWB was not good enough for combat’. Moreover JY likened XZ to ‘a flying bird’ as opposed to DY’s ‘a swimming fish’. You can decide on your own which animal is the more agile and faster one.

此卷为我逍遥派武功精要

- In Chinese the word 滑 have quite a few meanings, one of which is ‘slippery’, but it isn’t really suitable to translate it as ‘DY was slippery like a swimming fish’ b/c when applied to a person, ‘slippery’ means ‘evasive and unpredictable and not to be relied on’ (Oxford Dict.). DY was unpredictable and evasive in that situation, but he’s not the kind of guy who can’t be relied on. The other Chinese phrase of yours can be roughly translated as ‘being beautiful like a flower’.

I see no problem in saying a person's movement is evasive and unpredictable and not to be relied upon, which is how i read that phrase, as opposed to it being a character attack. It refers to his movement, as opposed to saying DY himself is slippery and cannot be relied upon.

Where's our resident English teacher?

- DY memorized a large part of but not all of the theory of the LMSJ. I already had this sentence in a previous post:
他自不知段誉记不明白六路剑法中这许多繁复的招式

记不明白 is don't understand as oppose to didn't memorize.

- XZ was helped by WYZ’s internal energy, but TSLT herself praised him for being a fast learner.

- Prior to meeting WYZ, Xu Zhu had never been interested in learning martial arts. Actually he never was. It was said that he spent a large part of his time studying Buddhism. XZ had a better start in martial arts than DY but it's only marginal. Saying that he spent most of his life studying martial arts is an exaggeration.

苦笑道：“小僧平时多读佛经，小时又性爱嬉戏，没好好修练师父所授的内功，
[Xu Zhu] forced a smile and said: ‘I usually spend time reading Buddhist texts, and also like to play, so I haven’t practiced very well the internal energy technique that my master taught me,

- There’s another quote, but I can’t find it at the moment. I’ll add it to this post when I remember where it is.

XZ knew 2 sets of Shaolin skills (the ones he used against JMZ), plus at least one internal skill (re: the text you just gave). In fact, your text shows that he started studying martial arts from a young age, as opposed to DY starting at the start of the novel. To say that his start is marginal is a blatant disregard of the text that you yourself gave.

[forgot password]

此卷为我逍遥派武功精要

I see no problem in saying a person's movement is evasive and unpredictable and not to be relied upon, which is how i read that phrase, as opposed to it being a character attack. It refers to his movement, as opposed to saying DY himself is slippery and cannot be relied upon.

Where's our resident English teacher?

记不明白 is don't understand as oppose to didn't memorize.

XZ knew 2 sets of Shaolin skills (the ones he used against JMZ), plus at least one internal skill (re: the text you just gave). In fact, your text shows that he started studying martial arts from a young age, as opposed to DY starting at the start of the novel. To say that his start is marginal is a blatant disregard of the text that you yourself gave.

- 精要 is essential. But this only means the 2 techniques in the scroll formed the essential part of the Xiaoyao MAs that LQS and WYZ knew. The scroll was by no means exhaustive b/c TSTL's martial arts weren't taken into account. Do you think that b/c the BWLHWWDZG and the TSLY Zhang weren't recorded in LQS's scroll, they aren't Xiaoyao School's essential techniques? In any case, the fact stands that LQS was never be able to outpace 1-legged TSTL and XZ.

- 记不明白 is obviously 'didn't remember clearly [the complicated stances of the LMSJ]' i.e. 'didn't memorize everything'. I don't know how you could translate it as 'didn't understand'.

- Blatant what? The sentence XZ said that I quoted clearly shows that XZ focused on learning Buddhism and did not spend enough time for martial arts. He could begin his training in MA at the age of 5, but this means zilch if he spent only one or two hours per day to practice. Without developing his internal energy, it was natural that he didn't make any significant progress in practicing Shaolin MAs.

- Another factor that affected XZ's progress in MAs was his master. It was said in the novel that this monk preferred reading Buddhist texts to practicing martial arts.

[athlee]

- 精要 is essential. But this only means the 2 techniques in the scroll formed the essential part of the Xiaoyao MAs that LQS and WYZ knew. The scroll was by no means exhaustive b/c TSTL's martial arts weren't taken into account. Do you think that b/c the BWLHWWDZG and the TSLY Zhang weren't recorded in LQS's scroll, they aren't Xiaoyao School's essential techniques? In any case, the fact stands that LQS was never be able to outpace 1-legged TSTL and XZ.

- 记不明白 is obviously 'didn't remember clearly [the complicated stances of the LMSJ]' i.e. 'didn't memorize everything'. I don't know how you could translate it as 'didn't understand'.

- Blatant what? The sentence XZ said that I quoted clearly shows that XZ focused on learning Buddhism and did not spend enough time for martial arts. He could begin his training in MA at the age of 5, but this means zilch if he spent only one or two hours per day to practice. Without developing his internal energy, it was natural that he didn't make any significant progress in practicing Shaolin MAs.

- Another factor that affected XZ's progress in MAs was his master. It was said in the novel that this monk preferred reading Buddhist texts to practicing martial arts.

You have been arguing that TSTL and LQS uses arts superior to LBWB and thus why XZ cannot differentiate the two. But now you say LQS cannot match XZ and TSTL. So is it that TSTL uses an unnamed lightness art that is superior to LQS's unnamed lightness art which is in turn superior to LBWB.

Remember '记' but don't understand '不明白' would be my translation of 记不明白. Didn't remember clearly would be 记不清楚. Isn't this obvious?

Finally, spending one/two hours a day since age 5 would hardly be marginal in comparison to someone who has not done a single thing with regards to martial arts until the age of 20. An uninterested person spending one hour a day studying martial arts is still a whole world's difference from someone who has never learned a single thing.

[forgot password]

You have been arguing that TSTL and LQS uses arts superior to LBWB and thus why XZ cannot differentiate the two. But now you say LQS cannot match XZ and TSTL. So is it that TSTL uses an unnamed lightness art that is superior to LQS's unnamed lightness art which is in turn superior to LBWB.

Remember '记' but don't understand '不明白' would be my translation of 记不明白. Didn't remember clearly would be 记不清楚. Isn't this obvious?

Finally, spending one/two hours a day since age 5 would hardly be marginal in comparison to someone who has not done a single thing with regards to martial arts until the age of 20. An uninterested person spending one hour a day studying martial arts is still a whole world's difference from someone who has never learned a single thing.

- As of now, in my opinion, TSTL and XZ's lightness skill is superior to LQS's lightness skill and DY's LBWB, and LQS was probably using a better lightness skill than the LBWB. Feel free to show me any textual evidence to the contrary. It's not like TSTL didn't know the LBWB, she did recognize it when DY used it to save her and XZ, but that did not seem to surprise her very much.

- '明白' when used as verb in a sentence means 'understand'. But when used as an adverb in phrases like 'verb + 不明白' usually means 'clearly'. You can read the whole paragraph of that sentence to have a clearer idea. DY 'did not remember clearly' all the complicated stances so he had to make up quite a few new stances of his own thus confusing JMZ. If you translate it as 'remembered [but] did not understand' (Tbh, I've never seen anyone else interpreting this phrase this way), part of the meaning of the paragraph would be lost. In TLBB, there are many other examples where '明白' should be translated as 'clearly'.

- I beg to disagree. What XZ practiced for ~ 20 years were the two most basic fist forms of Shaolin, he didn't even know well the positions of the acupuncture points when he met Wuyazi. It'd be unfair to say that he's a slow learner based on the fact that he only knew two basic fist forms. It was said that he did master these fist forms but as to why he never learned more advance Shaolin skills, no clear reason was given besides him and his master preferring Buddhism. Perhaps that was also partly b/c of the rigid hierarchy at Shaolin, if a master sucked, his disciples would suck.

[K2Grey]

I wouldn't say he mastered those two forms, it seemed like he sucked horribly with them.

[forgot password]

I wouldn't say he mastered those two forms, it seemed like he sucked horribly with them.

That's not true:
...十多年来，已将这套罗汉拳和韦陀掌练得纯熟无比。
...over the past more than 10 years, [XZ] had practiced and become extremely skillful at using the two forms Arhat Fist and Veda Palm.

[athlee]

- Prior to meeting WYZ, Xu Zhu had never been interested in learning martial arts. Actually he never was. It was said that he spent a large part of his time studying Buddhism. XZ had a better start in martial arts than DY but it's only marginal. Saying that he spent most of his life studying martial arts is an exaggeration.

- Blatant what? The sentence XZ said that I quoted clearly shows that XZ focused on learning Buddhism and did not spend enough time for martial arts. He could begin his training in MA at the age of 5, but this means zilch if he spent only one or two hours per day to practice. Without developing his internal energy, it was natural that he didn't make any significant progress in practicing Shaolin MAs.

- I beg to disagree. What XZ practiced for ~ 20 years were the two most basic fist forms of Shaolin, he didn't even know well the positions of the acupuncture points when he met Wuyazi. It'd be unfair to say that he's a slow learner based on the fact that he only knew two basic fist forms. It was said that he did master these fist forms but as to why he never learned more advance Shaolin skills, no clear reason was given besides him and his master preferring Buddhism. Perhaps that was also partly b/c of the rigid hierarchy at Shaolin, if a master sucked, his disciples would suck.

That's not true:
...十多年来，已将这套罗汉拳和韦陀掌练得纯熟无比。
...over the past more than 10 years, [XZ] had practiced and become extremely skillful at using the two forms Arhat Fist and Veda Palm.

When I said XZ had been learning martial arts for years, you say XZ had not been interested in martial arts and didn't spent a lot of time on it. Now you say that he mastered two martial arts over the ten plus years. So which is it, did he spent time on his martial arts or not?

- As of now, in my opinion, TSTL and XZ's lightness skill is superior to LQS's lightness skill and DY's LBWB, and LQS was probably using a better lightness skill than the LBWB. Feel free to show me any textual evidence to the contrary. It's not like TSTL didn't know the LBWB, she did recognize it when DY used it to save her and XZ, but that did not seem to surprise her very much.

You earlier said that XZ had good eyes, but still could not tell LQS and TSTL apart and you use this to say that their lightness skill is superior. You rejected my idea that the darkness is a factor to this.

Now you say XZ have even better lightness skill than LQS. While I agree to this as he did outpace LQS when they first met, I would say that it is because of his internal boost. Reason is simple, TSTL only thought him a little on lightness art, are you saying that just that little that she thought is so much better than anything LQS knows? In JY's world, high internal leads to fast movement.

A second reason is that to say that XZ cannot differentiate between LQS and TSTL because they are too fast when you are saying he has better lightness art than LQS is just ridiculous. If XZ cannot keep up with his eyes someone who is below him, he wouldn't be able to see a thing when he goes at full speed as everything will be a blur.

Finally, there is no textual evidence to support your theory. It is your job to find evidence to support a theory, not mine.

- '明白' when used as verb in a sentence means 'understand'. But when used as an adverb in phrases like 'verb + 不明白' usually means 'clearly'. You can read the whole paragraph of that sentence to have a clearer idea. DY 'did not remember clearly' all the complicated stances so he had to make up quite a few new stances of his own thus confusing JMZ. If you translate it as 'remembered [but] did not understand' (Tbh, I've never seen anyone else interpreting this phrase this way), part of the meaning of the paragraph would be lost. In TLBB, there are many other examples where '明白' should be translated as 'clearly'.

I have never heard of not understanding being translated as not clearly. Is this a mandarin thing because as far as I know, if I, for example, say 读不明白 (your verb + 不明白), it means that I don't understand when referring to a book. It certainly doesn't mean that I can't see it clearly. But let's put this onto Academia and see if anyone can clarify.

[forgot password]

When I said XZ had been learning martial arts for years, you say XZ had not been interested in martial arts and didn't spent a lot of time on it. Now you say that he mastered two martial arts over the ten plus years. So which is it, did he spent time on his martial arts or not?

You earlier said that XZ had good eyes, but still could not tell LQS and TSTL apart and you use this to say that their lightness skill is superior. You rejected my idea that the darkness is a factor to this.

Now you say XZ have even better lightness skill than LQS. While I agree to this as he did outpace LQS when they first met, I would say that it is because of his internal boost. Reason is simple, TSTL only thought him a little on lightness art, are you saying that just that little that she thought is so much better than anything LQS knows? In JY's world, high internal leads to fast movement.

A second reason is that to say that XZ cannot differentiate between LQS and TSTL because they are too fast when you are saying he has better lightness art than LQS is just ridiculous. If XZ cannot keep up with his eyes someone who is below him, he wouldn't be able to see a thing when he goes at full speed as everything will be a blur.

Finally, there is no textual evidence to support your theory. It is your job to find evidence to support a theory, not mine.

I have never heard of not understanding being translated as not clearly. Is this a mandarin thing because as far as I know, if I, for example, say 读不明白 (your verb + 不明白), it means that I don't understand when referring to a book. It certainly doesn't mean that I can't see it clearly. But let's put this onto Academia and see if anyone can clarify.

- There's no contradiction here. XZ never interested in learning martial arts. But this didn't prevent him from mastering martial arts techniques. He only practiced martial arts b/c he lived at Shaolin and that was the duty of a Shaolin monk. Also, he lived at Shaolin for ~ 20 years but that doesn't mean he spent the whole of those years for martial arts. His actual amount of training time was way less than that.

- I already said, there was a torch in the cellar. And JY used words like 'flying bird', 'flying' to describe the lightness skill of XZ. He never used such words to describe DY's footwork.

- Being faster mostly thanks to the internal boost? I beg to disagree, when that happened, he had just been taught a small part of TSTL's lightness skill and had still been unable to fully tap into WYZ's internal energy. Moreover, WYZ's had been paralyzed for years when he met XZ, so the 70 years of internal energy he transferred to XZ should be equal to LQS's internal energy at best.

- There's no explicit textual evidence? Maybe, at least at the moment I haven't been able to find one. But I can give a lot of circumstantial evidences. And you?

- Feel free to post a question about that in the Academia forum. A faster way is google some articles on the internet which contain the phrase '记不明白'. There are plenty of them.

[athlee]

- There's no contradiction here. XZ never interested in learning martial arts. But this didn't prevent him from mastering martial arts techniques. He only practiced martial arts b/c he lived at Shaolin and that was the duty of a Shaolin monk. Also, he lived at Shaolin for ~ 20 years but that doesn't mean he spent the whole of those years for martial arts. His actual amount of training time was way less than that.

- I already said, there was a torch in the cellar. And JY used words like 'flying bird', 'flying' to describe the lightness skill of XZ. He never used such words to describe DY's footwork.

- Being faster mostly thanks to the internal boost? I beg to disagree, when that happened, he had just been taught a small part of TSTL's lightness skill and had still been unable to fully tap into WYZ's internal energy. Moreover, WYZ's had been paralyzed for years when he met XZ, so the 70 years of internal energy he transferred to XZ should be equal to LQS's internal energy at best.

- There's no explicit textual evidence? Maybe, at least at the moment I haven't been able to find one. But I can give a lot of circumstantial evidences. And you?

- Feel free to post a question about that in the Academia forum. A faster way is google some articles on the internet which contain the phrase '记不明白'. There are plenty of them.

Yet it is way more than DY. We were comparing DY and XZ's martial background and you claim it is marginal, but you are now saying that he has practiced martial arts for 10 plus years and has mastered 2 forms and one unnamed internal art. That is a world of a difference between that and DY who started learning on his own at the age of 20.

眼见乌老大这一刀便要砍到那女童身上，突然间岩石后面跃出一个黑影，左掌一伸，一股大力便将乌老大撞开，右 手抓起地下的布袋，将那女童连袋负在背上，便向西北角的山峰疾奔上去。众人齐声发喊，纷纷向他追去。但那人 奔行奇速，片刻之间便冲入了山坡上的密林。诸洞主、岛主所发射的暗器，不是打上了树身，便是被 枝叶弹落。

This was before TSTL, but he is showing great speed. He knows no lightness art, which was why TSTL had to teach him in the same chapter. The lightness art was taught so that he can flee via the trees and leave no trace on the snow, nothing was said that it was for speed. There was plenty of people chasing and tracking them through tracks he left, but he was so fast that they could stop, chat and learn a lightness art and still no one reach them.

This is evidence that the internal provided him with the speed boost. ZMK's speed in HSDS without any special internal is also another example.

You claim that a small part of TSTL's lightness skill is beyond LQS. Further to this, you claim that LQS is using something better than LBWB. LBWB is already at the top when compared to the rest of wulin, to have something better is improbable. To have an art where only knowing a small portion is better than it is ridiculous.

[forgot password]

Yet it is way more than DY. We were comparing DY and XZ's martial background and you claim it is marginal, but you are now saying that he has practiced martial arts for 10 plus years and has mastered 2 forms and one unnamed internal art. That is a world of a difference between that and DY who started learning on his own at the age of 20.

This was before TSTL, but he is showing great speed. He knows no lightness art, which was why TSTL had to teach him in the same chapter. The lightness art was taught so that he can flee via the trees and leave no trace on the snow, nothing was said that it was for speed. There was plenty of people chasing and tracking them through tracks he left, but he was so fast that they could stop, chat and learn a lightness art and still no one reach them.

This is evidence that the internal provided him with the speed boost. ZMK's speed in HSDS without any special internal is also another example.

You claim that a small part of TSTL's lightness skill is beyond LQS. Further to this, you claim that LQS is using something better than LBWB. LBWB is already at the top when compared to the rest of wulin, to have something better is improbable. To have an art where only knowing a small portion is better than it is ridiculous.

The thing is, in the novel, it was stated 2 times that XZ's and TSTL's internal energies were not superior to LQS's. Therefore, the only explanation for them being able to outpace/keep up with Li despite some disadvantages such as having 1 leg or not having full control of internal energy was that they were using a better lightness skill.

Li might not be using the LBWB during the fight against TSTL in the cellar, but it is ridiculous to say that she did not master it b/c the LBWB after all was just a footwork and not something that takes decades to master.

Regarding XZ, the two forms he mastered were the two most basic martial arts of Shaolin and way inferior to Xiaoyao martial arts. I don't see that they were of any considerable help to XZ in learning Xiaoyao MA. The internal energy technique his master taught him should be pretty useless as well, considering that his master was toyed with by such people as weak as the four girls Mei Lan Zhu Ju Jian's.

[athlee]

The thing is, in the novel, it was stated 2 times that XZ's and TSTL's internal energies were not superior to LQS's. Therefore, the only explanation for them being able to outpace/keep up with Li despite some disadvantages such as having 1 leg or not having full control of internal energy was that they were using a better lightness skill.

Li might not be using the LBWB during the fight against TSTL in the cellar, but it is ridiculous to say that she did not master it b/c the LBWB after all was just a footwork and not something that takes decades to master.

Regarding XZ, the two forms he mastered were the two most basic martial arts of Shaolin and way inferior to Xiaoyao martial arts. I don't see that they were of any considerable help to XZ in learning Xiaoyao MA. The internal energy technique his master taught him should be pretty useless as well, considering that his master was toyed with by such people as weak as the four girls Mei Lan Zhu Ju Jian's.

I would appreciate if you could point me to the parts where that is stated, is it in the ice cellar?

I did not say LQS was not using LBWB or that she did not master it, you are the one arguing that she wasn't using it.

On XZ, my argument is only that he has a background in martial arts and was taught, which is a huge difference to DY not having any background and learning it from a book. I did not at any point meant that it helped XZ in learning advanced techniques. I apologise if I made you think that way. However, I do think that having learned an internal arts, however meager, helped XZ in learning to control his internal. You may compare this to DY who didn't even know that he was absorbing internal from people and was actually calling for help at Wu Liang Mountain as he drained the WLM disciples dry. You may also compare it to the fact that he didn't even know that he had actually executed 6MSJ when he tried to save his uncle from JMZ. I am sure that if he had XZ's background, he would have at least knew that he had executed 6MSJ.

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I would appreciate if you could point me to the parts where that is stated, is it in the ice cellar?

- Yes, JY stated that their internal energies were equal to each other at the end of the fight in the cellar in Ch. 37.

童姥和李秋水功力相若，各受重伤之后，仍是半斤八两，难分高下
TL and LQS had equal internal energies, after suffering the serious injuries their internal energies were still exactly equal to each other.

幸好他曾蒙无崖子以七十余年的功力相授，三个同门的内力旗鼓相当
Fortunately he (XZ) had received more than 70 years worth of internal energy of WYZ, the internal energies of the 3 fellow disciples were equal to each other