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Thread: Would any other emperor have put up with Wai Siu Bo's antics?

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Default Would any other emperor have put up with Wai Siu Bo's antics?

    Wai Siu Bo and Emperor K'ang Hsi shared a special chemistry that enabled them to not only become good friends, but also be an effective team in achieving the goals of their country.

    Would any other emperor have been willing to put up with Wai Siu Bo's antics, though? Towards the end of DOMD, even K'ang Hsi was finding it increasingly difficult to put up with Wai Siu Bo.

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    Senior Member Dirt's Avatar
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    Kang Xi's grandson Qian Long would have I think. One of his favorites is one of the most corrupt bearucrats in the history of China. There's indication that Qian Long knew, but he allowed it because he favored the guy. Of course, as soon as Qian Long died, his successor charged the guy with a crime, executed him and took all his money. It completely refilled the Imperial coffers.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Kang Xi's grandson Qian Long would have I think. One of his favorites is one of the most corrupt bearucrats in the history of China. There's indication that Qian Long knew, but he allowed it because he favored the guy. Of course, as soon as Qian Long died, his successor charged the guy with a crime, executed him and took all his money. It completely refilled the Imperial coffers.
    Sounds like Wai Siu Bo's kind of guy all right.

    I sort of wonder if Wai Siu Bo was still puttering around somewhere during the time of Emperor Chien Lung.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt View Post
    Kang Xi's grandson Qian Long would have I think. One of his favorites is one of the most corrupt bearucrats in the history of China. There's indication that Qian Long knew, but he allowed it because he favored the guy.
    I think Qian Long was very old and senile when Heshen abused his power. I don't think capable emperor like QianLong would put his kingdom at risk just because he like the guy.

    Of course, as soon as Qian Long died, his successor charged the guy with a crime, executed him and took all his money. It completely refilled the Imperial coffers.
    Despite that, the kingdom was going downhill untill it completely collapsed. All those emperors after QianLong were quite useless.

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Sounds like Wai Siu Bo's kind of guy all right.

    I sort of wonder if Wai Siu Bo was still puttering around somewhere during the time of Emperor Chien Lung.
    Assuming Kangxi was about the same age as WXB, he would most likely have died of old age by the time Qianlong took the throne. Kangxi lived to ripe old age, and passed away leaving the throne to Yongzheng who ruled for over a decade before handing over to Qianlong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trien Chieu View Post
    Despite that, the kingdom was going downhill untill it completely collapsed. All those emperors after QianLong were quite useless.
    Qianlong himself was quite useless towards the end of his reign, and arguably started the slide which his descendants continued. His rejection of Western technology which was shared with him by the English ensured that China would lag behind the West in future skirmishes. Qianlong, like many other Emperors, believed that the world revolved around China, but Qianlong ignored the possibility that other countries might have stuff which China could learn from.

    Guangxu had courage and noble intentions, and if he hadn't been surpressed by Cixi he might well have salvaged something, although the empire had degraded far too much by then.

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    Moderator Ken Cheng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post

    Qianlong himself was quite useless towards the end of his reign, and arguably started the slide which his descendants continued. His rejection of Western technology which was shared with him by the English ensured that China would lag behind the West in future skirmishes. Qianlong, like many other Emperors, believed that the world revolved around China, but Qianlong ignored the possibility that other countries might have stuff which China could learn from.
    To be fair to Chien Lung, he was merely following a mindset that had first taken hold of the Chinese imperial court (and society in general) beginning with the Ming Dynasty. The Mongol occupation of the Central Plains during the Yuan Dynasty (and the centuries of problems with the Jurchen and Khitan before that) had caused Ming China to become extremely xenophobic, and that carried on into the Qing Dynasty (ironically itself another foreign regime).

    That's not to absolve Chien Lung of responsibility, however. K'ang Hsi, after all, wholeheartedly embraced progress.

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    Senior Member Ace High's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    Assuming Kangxi was about the same age as WXB, he would most likely have died of old age by the time Qianlong took the throne. Kangxi lived to ripe old age, and passed away leaving the throne to Yongzheng who ruled for over a decade before handing over to Qianlong.
    Kangxi was two years older than WXB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Cheng View Post
    Wai Siu Bo and Emperor K'ang Hsi shared a special chemistry that enabled them to not only become good friends, but also be an effective team in achieving the goals of their country.

    Would any other emperor have been willing to put up with Wai Siu Bo's antics, though? Towards the end of DOMD, even K'ang Hsi was finding it increasingly difficult to put up with Wai Siu Bo.
    Actually, its just one antics that Kangxi couldn't put up, since its violated his promise to the surrendered people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    Guangxu had courage and noble intentions, and if he hadn't been surpressed by Cixi he might well have salvaged something, although the empire had degraded far too much by then.
    Suppressed by Cixi and other conservative ministers. But, I also read that Cixi and other ministers were pro-progress too, but, they prefer progress slowly instead of abruptly. This reminds me of the Tiananmen incident.

    I pity Guangxu. He has good intention but he did not have real power even though he's Emperor. I wonder if Kangxi was in his place, Kangxi might prevail. Kangxi did took back the power from Obai.
    什麼是朋友?朋友永遠是在你犯下不可原諒錯誤的時候,仍舊站在你那邊的笨蛋。~ 王亞瑟

    和諧唔係一百個人講同一番話,係一百個人有一百句唔同嘅說話,而又互相尊重 ~ - 葉梓恩

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    Suppressed by Cixi and other conservative ministers. But, I also read that Cixi and other ministers were pro-progress too, but, they prefer progress slowly instead of abruptly. This reminds me of the Tiananmen incident.

    I pity Guangxu. He has good intention but he did not have real power even though he's Emperor. I wonder if Kangxi was in his place, Kangxi might prevail. Kangxi did took back the power from Obai.
    If Kangxi was betrayed by Yuan Shikai I think Obai would have crushed him too. Kangxi might have been able to see through Yuan, though, but I don't think Guangxu had much of a choice. During Kangxi's time Obai controlled, I think, just three banners or something. During Guangxu's time his only possible hope, apart from the West (who much preferred Cixi over him anyway) was Yuan Shikai, so he didn't really have a prayer.

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    Senior Member Ace High's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    If Kangxi was betrayed by Yuan Shikai I think Obai would have crushed him too. Kangxi might have been able to see through Yuan, though, but I don't think Guangxu had much of a choice. During Kangxi's time Obai controlled, I think, just three banners or something. During Guangxu's time his only possible hope, apart from the West (who much preferred Cixi over him anyway) was Yuan Shikai, so he didn't really have a prayer.
    Oboi just controlled the Bordered Yellow Banner. But he also was the Commander of the Imperial Guards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace High View Post
    Actually, its just one antics that Kangxi couldn't put up, since its violated his promise to the surrendered people.
    What was the antic?

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    Senior Member Ian Liew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pannonian View Post
    What was the antic?
    I think he's referring to when he killed Feng Shifan after Kangxi had already promised the Zheng family that none of them would be harmed.

    That was probably just one issue, though. I think the main issue was that Kangxi could not accept that WXB would have conflicting loyalties, and would care for the Heaven Earth Society as well. He wanted WXB's loyalty, and the Heaven Earth Society removed as a threat, but WXB refused to harm either party, and that was not good enough for Kangxi (although in context, neither was it good enough for the Heaven Earth Society).

    Kangxi showed remarkable restraint and tolerance of virtually everything WXB could throw at him because deep down inside (and through his spies) he knew that WXB would never do anything to harm him, and would always have his interests at heart. I'm not sure any other Emperor would have shown such trust and faith in WXB to let him go about his own business in such a freeform way. It also helped that during Kangxi's reign (at least as far as the novel is concerned), there was remarkably little politics in the court, and there were no other influential ministers (other than Aobai and the fake empress) who would have put pressure on Kangxi to deal with the little pest at the slightest provocation. WXB had the support of virtually everyone who had any say in the court, and that helped Kangxi's position to abet WXB's actions until he could see the results for himself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Liew View Post
    I think he's referring to when he killed Feng Shifan after Kangxi had already promised the Zheng family that none of them would be harmed.
    It got pretty nasty in the 80's TVB adaptation, but in the novel, Kangxi didn't seem to care much at all - all he did was demote WXB by one class (and promptly restored it again when WXB offered to help fund the disaster relief for Taiwan).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Kwok View Post
    It got pretty nasty in the 80's TVB adaptation, but in the novel, Kangxi didn't seem to care much at all - all he did was demote WXB by one class (and promptly restored it again when WXB offered to help fund the disaster relief for Taiwan).
    WXB lost his military commision as Fuyuan Great General, which comprises about 40,000 troops.

    Kangxi did threaten to cut WXB's head off and burried it under Ah Ke or Shuang Er's bed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kidd View Post
    I pity Guangxu. He has good intention but he did not have real power even though he's Emperor. I wonder if Kangxi was in his place, Kangxi might prevail. Kangxi did took back the power from Obai.
    It's actually better off for the han chinese that Guangxu failed. If he succeeded, the han majority would forever be second class citizens. The manchurians were so racist against han chinese even during the chaotic time. If I were a han chinese during that time, I wouldn't help the kingdom either. I would probably join Sun Yat Sen team to overthrow the barbaric kingdom.

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