Did YANG GUO'S SAD PALMS GET PASSED DOWN? What if senario

[devilz91]

Sad Palms is a top-tier MA in the trilogy since it's comparable with XL18Z, although I do feel that Taiji Fist/Sword is more profound than either of those.

[aliderhamy]

IMO sad palms was the technique that set Yang gao appart from other martial artists... he chanelled his intense emetions into powerfull internal inergy dependent martial arts.

I dont think we managed to see the full power of the sad palms... I would have liked to have seen sad palms versus golden wheel monk in a more compleat 1v1 epic battle.

[aliderhamy]

Let's just say that whether ZWJ learns the XL18P's or the Sad Palms, it would make no difference on how much more effective he is as a fighter.

He already has Taiji fist (which is 100 yrs of Z3F's martial wisdom). So by giving ZWJ any other set of elite martial arts isn't going to improve his prowess. Unless there is another technique that is even better than the currently existing ones in the Condor Trilogy, there is nothing that would make ZWJ any stronger/better than he already is

IMO ZWJ needs to go on a trip with his new wife... then after 10 years of happy marrige and martial arts training on his own ina secluded area... have a bunch of super bad evil vilans kill his family... making him RAGE and change... no longer naive and hoping for the best... but angry and hatefulll.... then we would see his full potential... maybe... or Jin yong might be trying to tell us something... that ZWJ is as powerfull as he is becouse of his good nature... that somehow he is protected by KARMA

He seams to strugle equally against powerful enemies as he does against weak... as if the the chalange for him is not his opponents power but rather then mental and emotional anguish of the evil associated with conflict.

[Ken Cheng]

I dont think we managed to see the full power of the sad palms... I would have liked to have seen sad palms versus golden wheel monk in a more compleat 1v1 epic battle.

There seems to be way too much wishful thinking among fans about what Sad Palms can do. The situation at the end of ROCH was pretty dire. If that did not occasion its full usage, then what would?

[tape]

There seems to be way too much wishful thinking among fans about what Sad Palms can do. The situation at the end of ROCH was pretty dire. If that did not occasion its full usage, then what would?

It's true that there was no display of Yang Guo going 100% with Sad Palms except for those 5 surprise stances at the end versus GWM. All his other demonstrations were friendly spars. Don't see what's wrong with wanting to see a real display like GJ versus Mongol mercenaries.

[PJ]

To do the Sad Palms, one *must* be Yeung Gor.

If not, the resulting martial arts is something else, not Sad Palms. The resulting martial art could be a hundred times superior to Sad Palms...but it would not *be* Sad Palms.

Sad Palms is nothing more than a set of moves. "Happy" Yang Guo was nevertheless Great-level with Sad Palms. If a later person learned the moves of Sad Palms, I don't see why it's not Sad Palms.

[tape]

I wonder if his Sad Palms was reduced in power due to emotion because it affects the fighting style. As a sad, melancholy person, you value your life less and take more risks which results in an aggressive linking of stances and more kamikaze style which opponents have a much harder trouble dealing with. Maybe you allocate more inner strength/energy to attacking rather than defending also -- Dugu 9 Jian-esque -- which possibly falls in line with him being affected by his years of Dugu sword training.

If an outsider were taught this art and he were actually able to recognize the difference between Happy YG and Sad YG, perhaps Sad Palms would be usable in any state.

[kyss of the sword]

sad palms with out the feelings of melancholy was on even level with tenth level of dragon elephant wisdom skill. with sadness, it was on a higher level. so anyone should be able to learn the skill and be a force to be reckoned with. sad palms is a full style of attacks with complex variations and changes inside. even through there's only 17 moves, there are hundreds of attacks. such a skill should be passed down to his descendants. like lady yang and her servant girls.

[Ken Cheng]

Sad Palms is nothing more than a set of moves. "Happy" Yang Guo was nevertheless Great-level with Sad Palms. If a later person learned the moves of Sad Palms, I don't see why it's not Sad Palms.

Hong Lung 18 Palms without inner power is also just a "set of moves," and not a very spectacular set at that. Dog-Beating Stick Technique without the verbal formula is just another stick-fighting technique, not a wulin-dominating Greats martial art.

One might (or might not) be able to perform the strokes of the Sad Palm without having Yeung Gor's unique inner power foundation (which must be said, is pretty nerfed). Maybe someone can produce something that superficially *resembles* Sad Palm, but is so far from the true essence of the skill that the nature of the beast is entirely changed.

The physical component of Sad Palms is already hard enough to duplicate: you'd need *just* the right amount of Ha Mo Gung, Cheun Jen Sect's martial arts, the Ancient Tomb Sect's martial arts (including the Jade Maiden Manual), just the *right* amount of 9 Yum Jen Ging, perhaps some knowledge of Dog Beating Stick Technique (with verbal formula), some Peach Blossom Island martial arts, ingest rare super snake organs, and then train against the ocean tides with Dook Goo Kau Bai's Heavy Iron Sword for a few years.

It happened to Yeung Gor, sure, but who could *duplicate* that?

And even if someone did, that person would *still* be stymied by the sadness requirement.

There are less convoluted paths to martial arts greatness. Yeung Gor had to do it this way because that was his life, but nobody else needs to or could.

[tape]

If YG taught someone all the stances, and they used those stances, why wouldn't it be Sad Palms? He blended all those martial arts into one unique art, but if he taught it to you, he would naturally teach you the essences of each thing that he took. You don't need to know Mighty Snap to execute a move inspired by Mighty Snap as long as you are taught the intricacies of the move.

Hong Qigong, Xiao Feng, and Guo Jing all had different foundations and different methods of using Dragon Palms, and they even made major changes to the palms itself. Yet it is still unquestionably Dragon Palms.

Sad Palms is no exception -- the only thing is that emotion requirement, and perhaps a talented enough disciple could learn to use the stances and unleash its full power even without the sadness. YG certainly couldn't do it, but I can see someone figuring it out given enough time.

[Ken Cheng]

If YG taught someone all the stances, and they used those stances, why wouldn't it be Sad Palms? He blended all those martial arts into one unique art, but if he taught it to you, he would naturally teach you the essences of each thing that he took. You don't need to know Mighty Snap to execute a move inspired by Mighty Snap as long as you are taught the intricacies of the move.

Hong Qigong, Xiao Feng, and Guo Jing all had different foundations and different methods of using Dragon Palms, and they even made major changes to the palms itself. Yet it is still unquestionably Dragon Palms.

Sad Palms is no exception -- the only thing is that emotion requirement, and perhaps a talented enough disciple could learn to use the stances and unleash its full power even without the sadness. YG certainly couldn't do it, but I can see someone figuring it out given enough time.

That's the difference between Sad Palms and virtually any other martial art. For most other martial arts, all one needs to do is to follow a specific set of instructions. As long as one understands the instructions and follows them to the letter, one will get the results. There is a formula to follow.

Sad Palms, however, is the sum total of Yeung Gor's unique set of experiences during the first thirty or so years of his life. Even he couldn't tell you how to do it beyond, "Well...be me and do the stuff I did." There's no formula to it.

Let me boil it down to one sentence: Gwok Jing *uses* the Hong Lung 18 Palms; Yeung Gor *lives* the Sad Palms.

[tape]

Sad Palms has set stances and moves just like any other martial art. Each stance has a name, a method to direct the energy, and a purpose to the move -- just like any other martial art. If YG were willing to teach it to someone, there shouldn't be a reason why they couldn't at least reach happy YG level of Sad Palms.

Think of Huang Shang. His martial arts is a unique combination of taoist theory and life experiences against the Ming Cult, and his tragedy and temperament was probably subconsciously infused in 9 Yin, but anyone can learn that too.

Sad Palms is really not different from any other martial arts except for that really weird you have to be sad part, which I still think could possibly be circumvented if a bright enough disciple tried to dissect it. Of course an individual bright enough to do that would probably be bright enough to just learn something less troublesome.

[shrang]

IIRC when YG showed Sad Palms to ZBT, ZBT was actually able to understand 14/17 stances (one because YG didn't want to take his mask off and the other two because ZBT was happy chappy). So it might be possible for him to use those without too much difficulty.

[Exodus]

Sad Palms has set stances and moves just like any other martial art. Each stance has a name, a method to direct the energy, and a purpose to the move -- just like any other martial art. If YG were willing to teach it to someone, there shouldn't be a reason why they couldn't at least reach happy YG level of Sad Palms.

Think of Huang Shang. His martial arts is a unique combination of taoist theory and life experiences against the Ming Cult, and his tragedy and temperament was probably subconsciously infused in 9 Yin, but anyone can learn that too.

Sad Palms is really not different from any other martial arts except for that really weird you have to be sad part, which I still think could possibly be circumvented if a bright enough disciple tried to dissect it. Of course an individual bright enough to do that would probably be bright enough to just learn something less troublesome.

well said so conclusion most people who are talented can learn sad palm.

[Snafu3721]

After lots of discussions on Sad palms lately and careful re-reads of ROCH--

I have come to the conclusion that Sad Palms w/ Sadness is as good as GJ's modified XL18P.

Sad Palms w/o sadness is still a top tier Greats' lvl martial arts. I believe now that YG actually had more internal (not saying more pure) than most Greats including maybe even GJ (there is no conclusive proof but I can live with this). That's why Happy YG was still beating GWM at the final battle. YG had same internal, if not more, than GWM plus a superior technique.

Back to topic at hand. Sad palms w/o sadness should still be a set of forms that YG can pass down. It would just be a neutered version not quite capable of reaching it's max potential, but none the less it's still a powerful elite palm set. It would be like someone learning DG9J without understanding it's "formless" essence like LHC did. Much like certain techniques fit certain personalities, sad palms is better suited for more emotional people in general. Much like DG9J is better suited for intelligent/free spirit type of people.

[PJ]

Sad Palms, however, is the sum total of Yeung Gor's unique set of experiences during the first thirty or so years of his life.

Yeah, incorporated into a set of moves that anyone can learn.

Even he couldn't tell you how to do it beyond, "Well...be me and do the stuff I did." There's no formula to it.

How about learn the moves.

[Ken Cheng]

Yeah, incorporated into a set of moves that anyone can learn.



How about learn the moves.

Without Yeung Gor's own energy-training technique (which was really patched together and done more intuitively than in a formulaic manner) and his application of sadness, the moves aren't anything special. It'd be like trying to do the Dog-Beating Stick Technique without the verbal formula...or Hong Lung 18 Palms without the inner power. NooBs might find it strange and impressive, but it won't intimidate a Great.

[PJ]

Without Yeung Gor's own energy-training technique (which was really patched together and done more intuitively than in a formulaic manner) and his application of sadness, the moves aren't anything special.

Nothing suggests you need a particularly special type of internal energy to use Sad Palms (other than it needing to be a "yang" rather than "yin", perhaps, since Yang Guo had a "yang" type internal energy).

As for the sadness, let me say it again: Without any sadness, Yang Guo's Sad Palms >= GWM.

It'd be like trying to do the Dog-Beating Stick Technique without the verbal formula...or Hong Lung 18 Palms without the inner power. NooBs might find it strange and impressive, but it won't intimidate a Great.

No, it wouldn't. It would be like trying to do DBS without the specific level of internal energy that its creator had, or XL18Z without the specific internal energy that its creator had. Which we know is ok!

[Ken Cheng]

Nothing suggests you need a particularly special type of internal energy to use Sad Palms (other than it needing to be a "yang" rather than "yin", perhaps, since Yang Guo had a "yang" type internal energy).

As for the sadness, let me say it again: Without any sadness, Yang Guo's Sad Palms >= GWM.

Yeah...but the Golden Wheel Monk is a unique and special case of fail (which I'll get to in a few minutes in a separate, new thread). All you need to do with the Golden Wheel Monk is pull out something new and weird and he folds like a tent that you bought at a 99 Cents store. That same "weirdness" is not going to get to, say, East Heretic Wong Yerk See, who knows a thing or two about "weird" martial arts himself.

It's kind of like Chow Chi Yerk's 9 Yum White Bone Claws in HSDS; it's only scary if you don't know what you're dealing with.

No, it wouldn't. It would be like trying to do DBS without the specific level of internal energy that its creator had, or XL18Z without the specific internal energy that its creator had. Which we know is ok!

Sad Palms isn't a conventional martial art like those, however. It was, perhaps, more than any other martial arts skill, an existential skill that depended on its wielder. I can't think of an analogue in Jin Yong's universe, but Lee Chum Foon's flying dagger worked in a similar way. Some people superficially learned the "Lee's Flying Dagger" skill later on, but without his essence in it, it just wasn't the same. It was still a very good flying dagger skill, but lacked that aura of invincibility that Lee had when he wielded it.

[tape]

It's kind of like Chow Chi Yerk's 9 Yum White Bone Claws in HSDS; it's only scary if you don't know what you're dealing with.

Sad Palms isn't a conventional martial art like those, however. It was, perhaps, more than any other martial arts skill, an existential skill that depended on its wielder. I can't think of an analogue in Jin Yong's universe, but Lee Chum Foon's flying dagger worked in a similar way. Some people superficially learned the "Lee's Flying Dagger" skill later on, but without his essence in it, it just wasn't the same. It was still a very good flying dagger skill, but lacked that aura of invincibility that Lee had when he wielded it.

When Huang Yaoshi first saw Sad Palms, he realized it was a unique and supreme martial arts style that YG had created. It was weird, but it was also just as powerful as any other art in the world. Some martial arts, like the ones on the Persian Sacred Fire tablets, rely on weirdness as the primary method to defeat the opponent. Sad Palms does not. It has strange moves and variations, but it is a genuine elite art that uses weirdness as one if its many positive attributes, but not its main one.

The comparison with Dagger Li is a pretty good one, and I do think Sad Palms is tied to Yang Guo more than almost any other Great is tied to their martial arts, with the possible exception of Huang Yaoshi. Still, I can imagine YG mastering HYS's arts to 95% of his level, but none of the current Greats would likely be mastering Sad Palms to 95% of YG's levels.

I do think that a brand new disciple could learn Sad Palms though, and given enough time, he could probably overcome the sadness requirement by using some other emotion to fuel it.