Examining YG at 26 versus ZWJ at 25

[tape]

Xie Xun was a big figure in wulin pre-Kong Jian already, and I think it's pretty unlikely he wouldn't honor the bet.

His demeanor and speech really does not indicate he changed much, or was in the mood to spare any lives. He made it obvious he only did it to make them feel a little bit better about dying, but he was definitely going to kill them regardless.

He told Zhang Cuisan that the minute he figures out the secret of the Dragon Sabre, he'd kill the two of them and return for his vengeance. I don't see why he would make an empty threat, and I'm sure he was speaking the truth at the time.

[PJ]

There really isn't any reason Xie Xun couldn't continue his rampage while also looking for the Dragon Sabre. Either he'd stop out of remorse or not stop, but knowing about the Dragon Sabre would not change anything except to add another bloodthirsty party searching for it.

Well, XX did go into seclusion after DS, so KJ succeeded in that. No need to overanalyze

[Dirt]

It's straight out of Miyamoto Musashi's (thought by some to be the model for DGQB) playbook of doing the unexpected to surprising your enemy. Musashi (after showing up late) attacked Kojiro with what Kojiro thought was a regular bokkun but was actually an oar that Musashi carved into a bokkun; it was longer than a regular bokkun. Kojiro didn't know this so when Musashi attacked from far away, Kojiro didn't block because he knew a (regular) bokkun would never reach from the distance Musashi was at, a fatal mistake that cost him his life. It was a short fight. Was Musashi cheating? No. He won with superior strategy as well as superior skills. Wang Chongyang won with superior skills and a little strategy. If DGQB had done something similar, everybody here would be praising his superior sword skills and going to DG9J and HIS and trying to figure out which one of the martial arts it applies to again and again and using that instance to show how superior DG9J is compared to HIS and vice versa. Yeeesh.

[Ren Ying Ying]

If this is true, I'd like to bring up a totally different topic, that YG at 26 is > ZWJ at 25.

In internal, they should be relatively equal, external, ZWJ may have the slight edge, but we also don't know how powerful YG can be with the HIS. In terms of overall intuitive combat ability, YG beats ZWJ here, and in terms of combat experience, I believe YG > ZWJ here also.

Who YG should have fought at least once - XLN, Li Mochou, Huo Do, Da'erba, GWM, Gongsun Zhi, Gongsun Zhi's apprentice, Mongols, QQR, Eagle

Who ZWJ should have fought at least once(correct me if I'm wrong here) - he couples, shaolin monk(dragon claw), ah da, ah er, ah san, xm elders, du monks, persians

It is of my opinion that not only is the top group superior to the second(2nd group has du monks, but first group has GWM and QQR), but YG was also weaker than most of them when he fought them, whereas ZWJ was either extremely superior, or equal. (I believe experience against superior opponents is > experience against inferior opponents)

Then we should count the countless spars YG has with XLN(a few years worth) and Z3F teaching ZWJ over a few months.

Because of reasons stated above, I now believe YG > ZWJ at the age of 26-7, versus ZWJ's end HSDS.

Any comments or debates, shoot away!

One thing to take into consideration is each of their skillsets.

YG's arts, during his more mature ages (ie post HIS) tend to focus on arts that are more aggressive and power/strength drivien. ZWJ generally has trouble when he is stuck in a formation or complicated and strange techniques (or when he's holding back because he doesn't want to harm). That is, YG's skills from his earlier years (AT, Jade Flute, etc) are more likely to give ZWJ trouble. However, older YG's strong suit no longer lies in his fancy skills, but his power skills...so using his fancy skills against ZWJ may not necessarily be an advantage for YG.

On the other hand, ZWJ's skillset has more of a reflective nature and Taiji almost seems geared towards countering superior speed and strength (YG's strong suit). Hence, he may actually have an inherent advantage over YG in terms of their individual techniques. In terms of pure martial arts level, I do think ZWJ is superior to Yang Guo. In a theoretical, heads on, rules set, no tricks type of match, I think ZWJ will win.

Of course that does not necessarily mean that ZWJ will win in an actual battle. Even though ZWJ is pretty good at utilizing his skillset, he is not as creative as YG in terms of strategy...and it wouldn't be surprising if YG can somehow wiggle his way to victory (ie. young YG at the hero's feast, even though it was specifically stated that his overall martial arts are much weaker than Huo Du & Da'erba).

[ChanceEncounter]

It's straight out of Miyamoto Musashi's (thought by some to be the model for DGQB) playbook of doing the unexpected to surprising your enemy. Musashi (after showing up late) attacked Kojiro with what Kojiro thought was a regular bokkun but was actually an oar that Musashi carved into a bokkun; it was longer than a regular bokkun. Kojiro didn't know this so when Musashi attacked from far away, Kojiro didn't block because he knew a (regular) bokkun would never reach from the distance Musashi was at, a fatal mistake that cost him his life. It was a short fight. Was Musashi cheating? No. He won with superior strategy as well as superior skills. Wang Chongyang won with superior skills and a little strategy. If DGQB had done something similar, everybody here would be praising his superior sword skills and going to DG9J and HIS and trying to figure out which one of the martial arts it applies to again and again and using that instance to show how superior DG9J is compared to HIS and vice versa. Yeeesh.

The problem in this scenario is that Kojiro knew he was in a fight. If he didn't expect anything during the course of an actual fight, it's due to his own fighting instincts being off.

OYF did not have a clue he was in a fight or about to be in. He thought he was visiting a dead man. Most dead men don't suddenly pop up and hit you. So no, the scenario isn't the same.

[PJ]

I think Dirt's obsession with WCY has reached a new zenith.

[CancerLuna]

One thing to take into consideration is each of their skillsets.

YG's arts, during his more mature ages (ie post HIS) tend to focus on arts that are more aggressive and power/strength drivien. ZWJ generally has trouble when he is stuck in a formation or complicated and strange techniques (or when he's holding back because he doesn't want to harm). That is, YG's skills from his earlier years (AT, Jade Flute, etc) are more likely to give ZWJ trouble. However, older YG's strong suit no longer lies in his fancy skills, but his power skills...so using his fancy skills against ZWJ may not necessarily be an advantage for YG.

I'd argue the opposite, Sad Palms is not only a Great Level art(something ZWJ never battled against), and also probably the weirdest and strangest MA in all of condor trilogy.

IMO, its a total match-up nightmare for ZWJ.

On the other hand, ZWJ's skillset has more of a reflective nature and Taiji almost seems geared towards countering superior speed and strength (YG's strong suit). Hence, he may actually have an inherent advantage over YG in terms of their individual techniques. In terms of pure martial arts level, I do think ZWJ is superior to Yang Guo. In a theoretical, heads on, rules set, no tricks type of match, I think ZWJ will win.

How do we define martial arts level? Because I would include experience in martial arts level, efficiency in using techniques part of it also. Which I believe YG is superior here, even before 16 years.

Or just pure skill-set? Yeah, ZWJ has 9yang, but other than auto-protect(which probably won't work against YG), it's null since they have similar internal. His other arts are Taichi Fist and sword, which are ~ HIS(both great level). Yet HIS is possibly a Great+ art, so here I'd say YG is >= ZWJ in their MA. QKDNY is below central plains arts so I won't factor it.

In a theoretical, heads on, match with no tricks involved, I would still put YG over ZWJ.

Their externals, internals are similar(HISvs.Taichi, oceantrainingvs.9yang). But YG has shown time and time again to have better instinct and utilization of what he has than ZWJ. Couple that with experience on YG's side, and ZWJ would be needing tricks to win.

Of course that does not necessarily mean that ZWJ will win in an actual battle. Even though ZWJ is pretty good at utilizing his skillset, he is not as creative as YG in terms of strategy...and it wouldn't be surprising if YG can somehow wiggle his way to victory (ie. young YG at the hero's feast, even though it was specifically stated that his overall martial arts are much weaker than Huo Du & Da'erba).

For one, I don't think ZWJ is very good at utilizing his skillset, I believe someone else with his skillset would do much better than him.

Yes YG would have to somehow wiggle his way into victory... if his overall martial arts are much weaker, which isn't the case here.

[Dirt]

The problem in this scenario is that Kojiro knew he was in a fight. If he didn't expect anything during the course of an actual fight, it's due to his own fighting instincts being off.

OYF did not have a clue he was in a fight or about to be in. He thought he was visiting a dead man. Most dead men don't suddenly pop up and hit you. So no, the scenario isn't the same.

OYF knew he was going into a fight.

When Musashi appeared for the duel, he showed up late, dirty and unkempt. He looked like a mess. Kojiro didn't take Musashi seriously. Musashi lured Kojiro into a false sense of security with his appearance as well as the length of his bokkun.

OYF still had to fight the 7 Masters and ZBT. However, none of them at the time were as good as him. WCY was dying and likely didn't have much energy or time left to chase after OYF. Not to mention, he was a Taoist and therefore a practioner of Wu Wei; action with no action. WCY needed to bring OYF to him. The best way to do that was to pretend to die, giving OYF a false sense of security, because OYF knew he could best the 7 Masters and ZBT, he didn't take any of them seriously.

Fighting is as much about the mind as it is about how well you swing your sword.

[CancerLuna]

There's a difference between your circumstantial example and someone who can actually 1hit a great.

One is again circumstantial, the other will be able to do it every time.

I come from a fighting game community, and that type of strategy is always great, but it doesn't mean whoever wins will be superior every time, just that encounter.

Someone like Dugu, should be able to show his dominance every time.

[ChanceEncounter]

OYF knew he was going into a fight.

When Musashi appeared for the duel, he showed up late, dirty and unkempt. He looked like a mess. Kojiro didn't take Musashi seriously. Musashi lured Kojiro into a false sense of security with his appearance as well as the length of his bokkun.

OYF still had to fight the 7 Masters and ZBT. However, none of them at the time were as good as him. WCY was dying and likely didn't have much energy or time left to chase after OYF. Not to mention, he was a Taoist and therefore a practioner of Wu Wei; action with no action. WCY needed to bring OYF to him. The best way to do that was to pretend to die, giving OYF a false sense of security, because OYF knew he could best the 7 Masters and ZBT, he didn't take any of them seriously.

Fighting is as much about the mind as it is about how well you swing your sword.

OYF did not know he was going into a fight with WCY. He thought WCY was dead. As in keeled over. As in no pulse. As in not breathing. As in... not about to jump up and kick his ***...

Kojiro fought Musashi at less than peak effectiveness, but at the very least, Kojiro knew he was in a fight. He had the incentive and prerogative to have his guard up because they were exchanging blows. This is entirely different than walking into a situation where you have no idea that you're getting into a fight, and indeed, you have incentive to believe that you aren't going to get into a fight. As I said, OYF is not expecting a dead man to jump up and smack him. Very few people would.

People underestimate others in a fight all the time. But in a fair fight, if you lose because you underestimated an opponent, then it's your own fault. You can't fault someone for getting suckerpunched.

[Ren Ying Ying]

I'd argue the opposite, Sad Palms is not only a Great Level art(something ZWJ never battled against), and also probably the weirdest and strangest MA in all of condor trilogy.

IMO, its a total match-up nightmare for ZWJ.

Not necessarily. Sad Palms is strange in the sense that it uses non-traditional body parts such as the abdomen and sleeves instead of hands, but the technique itself is not fancy and it's strength relies on the power.

Ch. 34 (ed.2):
"他由此深思，创出了一套完整的掌法，出手与寻常武功大异，厉害之处，全在内力，一共是一十六招。"
"只因他单剩一臂，是以不在招数变化取胜，反而故意与武学道理相反."

From wuxiapedia translation:
"From then on, he developed a complete set of palm techniques that were completely different from conventional martial arts. The palms relied on internal energy and not on complicated fist techniques."
"Because he had one arm, he did not try to achieve victory with variations in stances but instead he deliberately chose to go against martial arts norms."

Hence, Sad Palms's technique is actually pretty simple. It relies on "blasting" the opponent away. ZWJ doesn't have trouble against strength (heck, Taiji is almost a counter for brute strength).

How do we define martial arts level? Because I would include experience in martial arts level, efficiency in using techniques part of it also. Which I believe YG is superior here, even before 16 years.

Or just pure skill-set? Yeah, ZWJ has 9yang, but other than auto-protect(which probably won't work against YG), it's null since they have similar internal. His other arts are Taichi Fist and sword, which are ~ HIS(both great level). Yet HIS is possibly a Great+ art, so here I'd say YG is >= ZWJ in their MA. QKDNY is below central plains arts so I won't factor it.

How can you claim that YG/GJ/XF can fight people who are stronger than him to a draw or a win if the end result is a draw/win? It's based on theoretical martial arts level that his opponents are "stronger" than him.

Skillset is why I pointed out that Taiji is a much better counter to YG's martial arts style (strength) than anything else YG has really faced. Most of LOCH fighters tend to focus on strength, with the exception of ZBT with his Kongming fists (and GJ when he choses to). However, neither really is able to utilize the opponent's strength against themselves the way Taiji does.

As I've stated before, ZWJ is decent in using his skillset (i don't remember the novel stating anywhere that he underutilized his skills set--minus when he was purposely going "easy". But i haven't read it in a long time, so i could be wrong). I didn't say no one can use it better than him (though that is also arguable).

Still, point being, ZWJ has trouble against formations and complicated techniques...neither of which YG's later martial arts rely on. You can claim that Taiji & QKDNY is on the same "level" as HIS/Sad Palms (which could be a debate in and of itself), but there does lie a difference if Taiji/QKDNY is more effective against HIS/Sad Palms than vice versa (ie. 1Yang Finger vs. Toad stance). Of course, you can try to debate that it isn't more effective.

Of course, that doesn't mean YG can't revert back to his previous fancy looking martial arts--which may help against ZWJ's relative lack of experience. However, again, you must take into the consideration that YG's strongest skills are his HIS & Sad Palms, not his previous martial arts. It depends on whether the benefits and risks outweigh each other.

[ChanceEncounter]

Not necessarily. Sad Palms is strange in the sense that it uses non-traditional body parts such as the abdomen and sleeves instead of hands, but the technique itself is not fancy and it's strength relies on the power.

Ch. 34 (ed.2):
"他由此深思，创出了一套完整的掌法，出手与寻常武功大异，厉害之处，全在内力，一共是一十六招。"
"只因他单剩一臂，是以不在招数变化取胜，反而故意与武学道理相反."

From wuxiapedia translation:
"From then on, he developed a complete set of palm techniques that were completely different from conventional martial arts. The palms relied on internal energy and not on complicated fist techniques."
"Because he had one arm, he did not try to achieve victory with variations in stances but instead he deliberately chose to go against martial arts norms."

Hence, Sad Palms's technique is actually pretty simple. It relies on "blasting" the opponent away. ZWJ doesn't have trouble against strength (heck, Taiji is almost a counter for brute strength).

Not being complicated doesn't mean it's not "weird." In fact, there are a number of "weird" techniques that are not particularly complicated at all. BXJ and KHBD are both techniques that are fairly simple, but rely on feints and speed to execute them effectively. DG9J is all about simplicity and free-flowing thought, but it defies norms by being nearly impossible to predict. None of the stances are necessarily that complex, but it takes a long time to truly master the philosophy, and opponents have a difficult time coping with the ability to consistently attack where they least expect it (or even attacking when they think they should be defending). That's ultimately the measure of how "weird" a technique is: that is, how different a technique is from established norms and how hard it is for someone to predict. A bizarre palm technique is a weird palm technique, by definition.

You're right, Sad Palms doesn't focus on complexity and maximizes strength, but the evidence from the novel suggests that it was, in fact, a very weird and very overbearing technique...

Against ZBT:

His legs seemed to float and his front was completely open – his form contradicted martial arts norms.

Just as his fist was about to make contact, Yang Guo’s stomach and chest contracted and then extended outwards. Zhou leapt back in shock – skilled fighters contracting their bodies to avoid attacks was fairly normal but he has never seen someone use their chest and stomach to actually attack someone. He was utterly surprised and shouted, “Uh, what kind of technique was that?”

The palms collided and Zhou wobbled; he felt his chest tighten – his martial arts were not weaker than his opponent’s but palm for palm, he could not compete with Yang Guo’s heavy and overbearing palm.

Yang Guo hung his arm down in a completely unprepared form. As soon as Zhou’s fist came near him, Yang Guo suddenly moved everything; his left palm, right sleeve, kicks, head, butt, even his chest, back, stomach and waist attacked – they all contained a level of energy capable of injuring an opponent.

Zhou could never predict a move such as this. In a flash, over ten different stances came at him at once. ‘Out of Nothing’ was one stance but it contained tens of variations within. Even someone with martial arts as high as Zhou’s, he was forced to step back. In this situation, he couldn’t help but also use his right arm to fend off the attack. He had to use all his efforts to block this attack, counterattacking never came into the equation. Nevertheless, he managed to block all the attacks and quickly leapt back in case of some more weird moves.

YG's Sad Palm definitely qualified as a "weird" technique. Someone like ZBT, who was a martial arts nut and had seen just about everything, was caught completely unexpected, and YG contradicted martial arts norms with his bizarre technique. A technique like that would be almost entirely foreign to ZWJ. I doubt he would be ready for it.

[CancerLuna]

Also just because something doesn't necessarily focus on an aspect of a whole, doesn't mean that aspect isn't at a high level itself.

Kobe's focus isn't on 3 pointers, but he is still a very good shooter.

Sad palms might focus on its overbearing palms, but it is also one of the weirdest ma styles.