XLN's master vs Miejue's master

[PJ]

2 women whom we know little about.

Who would win in a fight?

-XLN's master was not a match for OYF, but she was able to lock him up or something.

-Miejue's master was Nun Fengling, a disciple of Guo Xiang.

[devilz91]

Assuming Guo Xiang is a ROCH Great:

Miejue is slightly worse than Four Guardian Kings level who are each about 1/6 of ZWJ.

ZWJ is probably a bit better than GX, since 1/6 = 16.7% then Miejue being around 15% of Guo Xiang seems reasonable.

We don't know much about Fengling, but we can assume there is the same amount of deteroriation between GX and Fengling as between Fengling and Miejue:

Miejue is about 15% of GX, which would put Fengling around sqrt(0.15) ≐ 38.7% of a ROCH Great.

XLN's master would have fought OYF sometime between LOCH and ROCH, although she was weaker, she managed to catch OYF off guard and seal his acupoint with a needle. She is probably around 70-80% of a LOCH Great.

Now ROCH Great = 1.5 to 2x LOCH Great seems reasonable.

min(XLN's master) = (1/2)(0.7) ≐ 35.0%
max(XLN's master) = (1/1.5)(0.8) ≐ 53.3%

Take the average and you get 44.2%

44.2% > 38.7%

So it is likely XLN's master would win. However, she is only 44.2%/38.7% ≐ 14.2% better than Fengling on average, so it should be no easy fight.

[PJ]

Nice Math (TM).

I can't recall how many times Fengling got mentioned in HSDS. We know other people around her generation were mentioned: Kongjian was mentioned numerous times; He Zudao a few times (and his martial bro too, can't remember his name); Mulinzi (a master of 7 Maim Fist?) was mentioned. Getting referenced and revered by future generations (outside of your organization) can be an indication of how powerful you were.

[devilz91]

I think Fengling is only mentioned by Miejue when telling ZZR about the secret of the two weapons. Most likely GX gave her that name in memory of her encounter with YG in Fengling.

He Zudao's martial brother is Lingbao who is mentioned on the boat when ZWJ is returning to mainland for the first time.

[tape]

Nice Math (TM).

I can't recall how many times Fengling got mentioned in HSDS. We know other people around her generation were mentioned: Kongjian was mentioned numerous times; He Zudao a few times (and his martial bro too, can't remember his name); Mulinzi (a master of 7 Maim Fist?) was mentioned. Getting referenced and revered by future generations (outside of your organization) can be an indication of how powerful you were.

The teacher of the XM elder was also mentioned, and can possibly be deduced to be quite powerful as ZSF remembers him.

With all these powerful and possibly near close Great level people, perhaps this is debunks your Pre-novel Ingloriousness theory.

[PJ]

Actually, I have some doubt whether Priest Baisun is the teacher of Xuanming Elders. He could be their grand-teacher (if he was their teacher at all).

He is said to have died 30 years before Zhang Sanfeng reached 100 years old. The XM elders were probably only 10-20 years old when Baisun died - I don't remember we were told their age, but they didn't seem that old, since Lu Zhangke was still sleeping around with women. If we assume they're 55 in most of HSDS, then 10 years ago they would be 45; 30 years ago they would be 15.

They would just be starting to learn MA. If their teacher already died, then how did they get so powerful by themselves?

[devilz91]

Actually, I have some doubt whether Priest Baisun is the teacher of Xuanming Elders. He could be their grand-teacher (if he was their teacher at all).

He is said to have died 30 years before Zhang Sanfeng reached 100 years old. The XM elders were probably only 10-20 years old when Baisun died - I don't remember we were told their age, but they didn't seem that old, since Lu Zhangke was still sleeping around with women. If we assume they're 55 in most of HSDS, then 10 years ago they would be 45; 30 years ago they would be 15.

They would just be starting to learn MA. If their teacher already died, then how did they get so powerful by themselves?

Song Yuanqiao thought the XM elder that injured ZWJ looked around 50, so Baisun probably died when they were around 20.

That is still a bit young though, so they probably didn't finish learning the palms by the time their teacher died. Or it could be that he was never their teacher at all, and they found his manual lying somewhere.

ZSF also thought that the palms were extinct after Baisun died, so he probably didn't know he had disciples. ZSF was probably responsible for wiping out Baisun & his clan. If the XM elders got so good by themselves, Baisun should be at the very least LOCH Great level.

[PJ]

Or it could be that he was never their teacher at all, and they found his manual lying somewhere.

That is indeed a possibility.

It could also be something like Baisun's martial sister (who is not well-known) taught them.

ZSF was probably responsible for wiping out Baisun & his clan.

Is there any evidence of this?

[devilz91]

Is there any evidence of this?

It is not directly stated, but here are some reasons I think so:

1. ZSF seems to understand the nature of the XM palms quite well. He recognized it by its imprint on ZWJ's chest and knew that it would be impossible to save ZWJ without the complete 9 Yang. He also knew that if the palms were used against someone with higher internal than the user, its force would reflect back to the user.

2. ZSF thought that the palms would be extinct after Baisun, which means he thinks Baisun's entire clan was wiped out. Judging by the level of the XM elders, Baisun must have been a VERY strong opponent. It is hard to think of someone who is capable of doing this besides himself.

3. 30 years ago, ZSF was 70. This is around the same time Wudang was established. If he were to establish Wudang as an elite orthodox sect, there seems no better way to do so than to wipe out one of the greatest wulin menaces of that time.

4. Baisun was a Taoist like ZSF, so they could have had disputes with each other.

5. It is said that anyone who witnessed ZSF's true power is all dead now. Either they died of old age or they were killed by ZSF. If Baisun simply died of old age, it seems unreasonable to conclude that the palms would be extinct (how could he not have any disciples?)

[PJ]

Ha. I was sure you would name what I thought was the foremost reason/hypothesis (hypothesized by "forgotten password"):

JY wrote that Zhang Sanfeng once had a palm clash with Xuanming Divine Palm, although we don't see this in detail. One may instinctively think that would be the Xuanming Elder who kidnaped Wuji, but it could also have been Baisun, since JY didn't specify who clashed Xuanming Palm with Z3F.

[devilz91]

Ha. I was sure you would name what I thought was the foremost reason/hypothesis (hypothesized by "forgotten password"):

JY wrote that Zhang Sanfeng once had a palm clash with Xuanming Divine Palm, although we don't see this in detail.

Never knew about this.

One may instinctively think that would be the Xuanming Elder who kidnaped Wuji, but it could also have been Baisun, since JY didn't specify who clashed Xuanming Palm with Z3F.

It seems unlikely, given ZSF had a direct confrontation with this person it would be strange that he would not recognize him. Later he talks of Baisun as if he had been dead for 30 years. It would also be weird for him to disappear without being mentioned again by the time ZWJ came into the picture.

[PJ]

Never knew about this.

Here is that thread: http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...Zhang-Real-Man

[devilz91]

Here is that thread: http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthre...Zhang-Real-Man

That is interesting. From what I can make of it, there are four possibilities:

1. Zhang Sanfeng DID match palms with this Xuanming Elder, but it wasn't mentioned until later.

ZSF probably injured this elder after matching palms with him (his higher internal redirecting the force of the palm back to the user). He forgot about the elder afterwards and may have also thought the elder would sustain major injuries after the clash. It would then make sense for him to later ask Song Yuanqiao to chase after the elder, since he should know that this elder (if not injured) should be better than SYQ.

However, this seems really inglorious for ZSF. Why is there a need for a palm clash when ZSF already seized the elder by the shoulder in one stance? Also, if the elder was afraid of matching palms with Yu Lianzhou, how could he dare to match palms with ZSF?

I am all for this possibility though, because it supports my argument in another topic where I said ZSF can't defeat a XM elder in one stance.

2. Zhang Sanfeng actually matched palms with Taoist Baisun some years before the novel began.

This is possible, although it is made less likely because ZSF seems to suggest he did match palms with this elder who was disguised as a Mongol soldier that year. It's also possible that he matched palms with BOTH the XM elder and Baisun before.

Chapter 25:

張三豐道：「那一年也是在這三清殿上，我和這老人對過一掌，只是當年他假扮蒙古軍官，不知到底是二老中的哪 一老。說來慚愧，直到今日，咱們還是摸不清對頭的底細。」

3. Zhang Sanfeng DID match palms with an XM elder, but this XM elder was not the same elder who injured ZWJ.

Then this would have happened off screen, but seems unlikely, since it seems there was only one elder at Wudang.

4. Plot hole.

This is most likely IMO. Either JY forgot to include the actual palm clash or he just thought of it later, but it makes no sense that an XM elder would dare to clash palms with ZSF. Surprisingly, the palm clash was mentioned in two separate occasions yet it wasn't corrected in the third edition, nor does the first edition show any explicit palm clash with the elder.

[PJ]

Chapter 25:

Great find.

Although it could be a JY brain fart, I have reason to believe it is more likely additional info told retrospectively. I will explain why I think so later.

[PJ]

Although it could be a JY brain fart, I have reason to believe it is more likely additional info told retrospectively. I will explain why I think so later.

After looking through my reason again, it wasn't as strong as I remembered. So I can't give any reason right now. So I'm 50-50 split between BrainFart (TM) and Retrospective Additional Detail.

[ChanceEncounter]

After looking through my reason again, it wasn't as strong as I remembered. So I can't give any reason right now. So I'm 50-50 split between BrainFart (TM) and Retrospective Additional Detail.

So BrainFart is getting trademarked now too?

[PJ]

It was trademarked a while ago.

On 8th thought, I think this case is less likely to be a BrainFart, since JY mentioned on TWO occasions that Z3F had a palm match with XM elder. It looks like his intent was to let that be canon. So I'm going to say it's a RAD (Ret Add Det).

[devilz91]

So did ZSF match palms after or before seizing the elder's shoulder?

[PJ]

So did ZSF match palms after or before seizing the elder's shoulder?

Good question. Regarding this, I can only think of one explanation.

First, let's remember the XM Elder didn't even dare match palm with Yu Lianzhou, fearing that Yu might have higher internal energy which would make the XM Shenzhang bounce back to the user.

So, it makes no sense that he would use XM Shenzhang against Yu's teacher ZRM (Zhang Real Man).

So, I believe what happened was: 1) Z3F placed his hand on XM Elder's shoulder like the novel described, and then 2) Z3F seized XM Elder's palm and put it against his own, slightly clashing, which had the effect of saying "you bastard, go ahead and hit me, if you dare."

[tape]

Good question. Regarding this, I can only think of one explanation.

First, let's remember the XM Elder didn't even dare match palm with Yu Lianzhou, fearing that Yu might have higher internal energy which would make the XM Shenzhang bounce back to the user.

So, it makes no sense that he would use XM Shenzhang against Yu's teacher ZRM (Zhang Real Man).

So, I believe what happened was: 1) Z3F placed his hand on XM Elder's shoulder like the novel described, and then 2) Z3F seized XM Elder's palm and put it against his own, slightly clashing, which had the effect of saying "you bastard, go ahead and hit me, if you dare."

That seems like an awkward motion. What would be the point of the palm part if you already have his shoulder?