The Mandate RPG Discussion Thread

[IcyFox]

The name 'Golden Spring' is just hilarious, and it reminds me of 'spring chicken'.

LOL


Yes! The 1001st post!

[Guo Xiang]

LOL


Yes! The 1001st post!

Congrats!

I have also created tension for Xiwu. Don't worry, Xiwu won't be as damaged as Xue Qian thought it would be.

And I wish Pat will be back in action soon. :'(

[S Beaver]

Question...is Xiwu using Prince Ying instead of King Ying on purpose?

Congrats!

I have also created tension for Xiwu. Don't worry, Xiwu won't be as damaged as Xue Qian thought it would be.

And I wish Pat will be back in action soon. :'(

Did Xue Qian think that Xiwu was damaged?

I think somebody ate Pat (it wasn't me, promise!)

[IcyFox]

Question...is Xiwu using Prince Ying instead of King Ying on purpose?

Yes. A superior state will only recognise one true king.

[S Beaver]

Yes. A superior state will only recognise one true king.

i thought you can always have multiple kings for multiple states, so by "one true king", does it mean that Xiwu does not recognize the other states?

do they refer to everyone outside of Xiwu as "Prince" (ie. including Pan)? I mean, it can't be good for diplomatic purposes, can it?

just wanted to clarify if this is something every state does or just Xiwu, so that I know what I can build on. tkx

[Guo Xiang]

Question...is Xiwu using Prince Ying instead of King Ying on purpose?



Did Xue Qian think that Xiwu was damaged?

I think somebody ate Pat (it wasn't me, promise!)

No, Xue Qian didn't think Xiwu was damaged, but that going head-on with Jiancheng could damage Xiwu.

Yes. A superior state will only recognise one true king.

i thought you can always have multiple kings for multiple states, so by "one true king", does it mean that Xiwu does not recognize the other states?

do they refer to everyone outside of Xiwu as "Prince" (ie. including Pan)? I mean, it can't be good for diplomatic purposes, can it?

just wanted to clarify if this is something every state does or just Xiwu, so that I know what I can build on. tkx

Nice catch, Bebe. Although Xiwu could always say that it's because Sima Ying's rule has not been legitimized yet...

[IcyFox]

i thought you can always have multiple kings for multiple states, so by "one true king", does it mean that Xiwu does not recognize the other states?

Yep. Xiwu treats the other states as fiefs granted to princedoms under the authority of the king. So, naturally, there can only be one true king.

(In Chinese this would be 王爷 or 诸侯 depending on the time period, but Ying seems rather young to fit into either discription...)

do they refer to everyone outside of Xiwu as "Prince" (ie. including Pan)? I mean, it can't be good for diplomatic purposes, can it?

If you're that strong, why bother with diplomacy? Same goes for Jiancheng, doesn't it?

[S Beaver]

Yep. Xiwu treats the other states as fiefs granted to princedoms under the authority of the king. So, naturally, there can only be one true king.

(In Chinese this would be 王爷 or 诸侯 depending on the time period, but Ying seems rather young to fit into either discription...)

If you're that strong, why bother with diplomacy? Same goes for Jiancheng, doesn't it?

Terminology will probably depend on the specific political setting and time period we have. We can have an eastern zhou/spring autum/warring state atmosphere where there technically is a figurehead "true king/emperor" with no real power but with more or less independent states/fiefs ruled by "kings (王)". Or you can have entirely sovereign states/kingdoms without even a central king/emperor (ie the latter parts of 3 kingdoms, 5 dynasty 10 kingdoms period, etc), where the rulers can declare themselves whatevers they like--king/emperor/etc.

王 and also be refered to as Prince, but generally, they don't enjoy the same sovereignty in their territory as compared to "King" (and are often considered "subjects" of the King)

So it depends on who Xiwu is claiming to be the "one true king". From the way GX wrote the intro, it doesn't appear there is an actual figurehead "true king" to be spoken of like the spring autumn/warring states scenario (hence, you can't even claim pseudo-authority like Cao Cao did with control over Emperor Xian). Nor does it appear that Xiwu holds any higher political authority or control over Pan/Xiang/Donghai/Nanxi/etc, so for Xiwu to consider to those territories as fiefdoms of their own is borderline delusional (they may view it that way, but it really means *hit in practical reality). Even if they do it just to spite everyone because they are big, bad, aan hold their own against anyone, I doubt they can bully everyone together into submission as of right now.

As of the way things are written, it does not seem that Donghai is in any way a subject of Xiwu, so it really doesn't matter what Xiwu thinks of Donghai. The King of Donghai is still the King--unless 1) Xiwu does not recognize Ying as the legitimate ruler of Donghai, or 2) they are doing it on purpose to piss off Donghai by calling them as subject of Xiwu.

Also, if Xiwu actually does view Pan & Donghai as subjects of Xiwu, then they would not form alliances with the two, as by engaging in diplomatic relations would be acknowledging that the other party is a state independent of Xiwu.

Not sure about how Jiancheng goes (that's GX's baby), but the impression I get is that Jiancheng doesn't claim to be a sovereign nation with the aspiration to politically rule the entire lands so the rules for them are a bit different. wulin rules?

[Guo Xiang]

If you're that strong, why bother with diplomacy? Same goes for Jiancheng, doesn't it?

Are you referring to my latest post?

Actually Jiancheng do bother... as to why the diplomancy snapped, there's a reason I'm not telling yet. But I'd say this much: sabotage was involved... so Xiwu never did receive the letters Jiancheng sent.

But if you are drawing comparisons to how Jiancheng is the biggest bully in the martial realm of Xiwu's lands, it's quite different. Because Jiancheng has already conquered what it needs to in Shuzhong, while the same can't be said for Xiwu (with its reference goal as the whole of China). So Jiancheng IS the sole sovereign in Shuzhong's martial realm, and the same is for Xiwu in political terms - only in their own lands.

Although historically goes, only people who have ties to previous royal houses will have such ideas (for example, the ruling family of Xiwu are descendants of the Han Dynasty's Liu clan...) otherwise it's risky bigotry, especially if they start talking to Pan and Donghai in such a manner.

But of course, maybe Xiwu does have a strong sense of entitlement with their growing strength (their biggest rival Donghai is no longer a threat and they could take Pan any time they want, and now even Nanxi is sucking up to them ) which can explain it all.

[IcyFox]

So it depends on who Xiwu is claiming to be the "one true king". From the way GX wrote the intro, it doesn't appear there is an actual figurehead "true king" to be spoken of like the spring autumn/warring states scenario (hence, you can't even claim pseudo-authority like Cao Cao did with control over Emperor Xian). Nor does it appear that Xiwu holds any higher political authority or control over Pan/Xiang/Donghai/Nanxi/etc, so for Xiwu to consider to those territories as fiefdoms of their own is borderline delusional (they may view it that way, but it really means *hit in practical reality). Even if they do it just to spite everyone because they are big, bad, aan hold their own against anyone, I doubt they can bully everyone together into submission as of right now.

As of the way things are written, it does not seem that Donghai is in any way a subject of Xiwu, so it really doesn't matter what Xiwu thinks of Donghai. The King of Donghai is still the King--unless 1) Xiwu does not recognize Ying as the legitimate ruler of Donghai, or 2) they are doing it on purpose to piss off Donghai by calling them as subject of Xiwu.

Also, if Xiwu actually does view Pan & Donghai as subjects of Xiwu, then they would not form alliances with the two, as by engaging in diplomatic relations would be acknowledging that the other party is a state independent of Xiwu.

States friendly to Xiwu are considered fiefs, states that don't want to suck up to Xiwu are considered rogue states - the same way China views Taiwan today, yet no one dares suggest that China is borderline delusional, why do you think that is so?

All in all, Xiwu views itself to possess the Mandate of Heaven, and thererfore the right to reclaim all territories and establish itself as the supreme authority in the Central Plains, very much like Qin did.

[Guo Xiang]

Question...is Xiwu using Prince Ying instead of King Ying on purpose?



Did Xue Qian think that Xiwu was damaged?

I think somebody ate Pat (it wasn't me, promise!)

Yes. A superior state will only recognise one true king.

i thought you can always have multiple kings for multiple states, so by "one true king", does it mean that Xiwu does not recognize the other states?

do they refer to everyone outside of Xiwu as "Prince" (ie. including Pan)? I mean, it can't be good for diplomatic purposes, can it?

just wanted to clarify if this is something every state does or just Xiwu, so that I know what I can build on. tkx

States friendly to Xiwu are considered fiefs, states that don't want to suck up to Xiwu are considered rogue states - the same way China views Taiwan today, yet no one dares suggest that China is borderline delusional, why do you think that is so?

All in all, Xiwu views itself to possess the Mandate of Heaven, and thererfore the right to reclaim all territories and establish itself as the supreme authority in the Central Plains, very much like Qin did.

So my theory that it's the sense of self-entitlement is correct?

[IcyFox]

So my theory that it's the sense of self-entitlement is correct?

Yep you could say that.

[S Beaver]

States friendly to Xiwu are considered fiefs, states that don't want to suck up to Xiwu are considered rogue states - the same way China views Taiwan today, yet no one dares suggest that China is borderline delusional, why do you think that is so?

All in all, Xiwu views itself to possess the Mandate of Heaven, and thererfore the right to reclaim all territories and establish itself as the supreme authority in the Central Plains, very much like Qin did.

I don't see a problem with Xiwu seeing itself as self-entitled, as all states probably think that at one point. However, China can stake it's claimes over Taiwan on the international scene b/c it is much bigger and badder than Taiwan and it's international influence has expanded to the point that foreign nations are unwilling to go against China on the issue. In other words, China is basically bullying Taiwan on the international scene.

I can see how Xiwu would bully its way against weaker states such as the current Donghai or Nanxi, but it puts the Xiwu-Pan alliance into an awkward position. Pan is still considered a powerful state. At the time of alliance/marriage, even if Pan is not stronger than Xiwu, it should be able to hold it's own against Xiwu. I cannot imagine Pan willing to go into alliance or kissing up to Xiwu if it knew that Xiwu only views it as a fiefdom of Xiwu.

[IcyFox]

I don't see a problem with Xiwu seeing itself as self-entitled, as all states probably think that at one point. However, China can stake it's claimes over Taiwan on the international scene b/c it is much bigger and badder than Taiwan and it's international influence has expanded to the point that foreign nations are unwilling to go against China on the issue. In other words, China is basically bullying Taiwan on the international scene.

Yep, exactly what Xiwu is doing.

[S Beaver]

Yep, exactly what Xiwu is doing.

I can see Xiwu trying to bully the weaker states like the weakened Donghai or even Nanxi, but you haven't explained on how that would affect a Pan-Xiwu relationship. Xiwu is big and bad, but not big and bad enough to be bullying Pan. Can't imagine Pan wanted to alliance with Xiwu if that's the attitude they're going to give Pan. Or is this attitude only a recent development (post-marriage alliance)?

Using the China-Taiwan comparison is not valid to the case of the RPG. With their currently military power, China really wanted to put Taiwan into full submission, they probably just have to lift a pinky. The only thing stopping them is 1) international influence (it'll look bad on China to just go in a demolish Taiwan and other international powers might intervene) and 2) there is minimal gain politically or economically.

This is entirely different from Xiwu. If Xiwu considers all the other states as part of its own fiefdoms, then it doesn't have any "international" reputation to worry about. In that case, if they are powerful enough compared to the other states, there is no need for cutie pie to go sneaking around. Just go in and crush everyone already. So obviously, Xiwu is not THAT powerful compared to the other states to be drawing a China-Taiwan comparisson.

International recognition is also important. On the international level, most other countires do not view Taiwan as a sovereign state, hence it is not delusional for China go view Taiwan as its own territory. In contrast, Taiwain thinking that it is a sovereign nation (but not recongized by other nations) is borderline delusional. Heck, up until the late 1990s, Taiwan even claimed that it was the rightful ruler over the entire mainland China--now that is definitely delusional.

Therefore, if Xiwu views everyone else as a fiefdom of its own but no other "states" recognize it, then it is more or less being delusional.

And if Xiwu is doing it on purpose to piss off the other kingdoms, nobody is going to want to alliance with them. Donghai, in it's current position, might be bullied into it, but Pan is not that easy to bully.

[IcyFox]

I can see Xiwu trying to bully the weaker states like the weakened Donghai or even Nanxi, but you haven't explained on how that would affect a Pan-Xiwu relationship. Xiwu is big and bad, but not big and bad enough to be bullying Pan.

Now it is.

Can't imagine Pan wanted to alliance with Xiwu if that's the attitude they're going to give Pan. Or is this attitude only a recent development (post-marriage alliance)?

You're right there.

This is entirely different from Xiwu. If Xiwu considers all the other states as part of its own fiefdoms, then it doesn't have any "international" reputation to worry about.

Right again.

In that case, if they are powerful enough compared to the other states, there is no need for cutie pie to go sneaking around.

All part of the plan.

So obviously, Xiwu is not THAT powerful compared to the other states to be drawing a China-Taiwan comparisson.

It was not.

Therefore, if Xiwu views everyone else as a fiefdom of its own but no other "states" recognize it, then it is more or less being delusional.

Until they enforce it. Like Qin attacking Zhao, for example.

And if Xiwu is doing it on purpose to piss off the other kingdoms, nobody is going to want to alliance with them. Donghai, in it's current position, might be bullied into it, but Pan is not that easy to bully.

It was not.


You've already gotten most of it right; if you think a few more steps ahead, you wouldn't be needing me to explain this already. Given the current situation and latest developments, it is inevitable that it will eventually boil down to a question of military might. When that happens we can toss all political issues right out of the window.

Xiwu is almost ready.

[S Beaver]

Can't imagine Pan wanted to alliance with Xiwu if that's the attitude they're going to give Pan. Or is this attitude only a recent development (post-marriage alliance)?

You're right there.

So to set things straight without any confusion, Xiwu had originally refered to everyone by their titles properly (at least in diplomacy), ie called the King of Pan/Donghai/etc as "King" rather than "Prince" and only recently (post Pan-alliance) decided to become full of itself and calling everyone "Prince" instead of "King"?

If so, is this something that has gone public? Does the King of Pan know that Xiwu now only views Pan as a fiefdom of Xiwu?

[IcyFox]

So to set things straight without any confusion, Xiwu had originally refered to everyone by their titles properly (at least in diplomacy), ie called the King of Pan/Donghai/etc as "King" rather than "Prince" and only recently (post Pan-alliance) decided to become full of itself and calling everyone "Prince" instead of "King"?

Yes. Now that Cutie Pie's covert operations have borne fruit and Xiwu's military preparations are almost complete, they have updated their foreign policy accordingly.

If so, is this something that has gone public? Does the King of Pan know that Xiwu now only views Pan as a fiefdom of Xiwu?

That depends on how long news takes to go public in those days without Facebook and Twitter. Xiwu is obviously not going to specially send a messenger to Pan with an edict that says, "Hey, we are not calling you 'King' anymore. 'Prince' sounds more appropriate for you. Cheers!"

[Guo Xiang]

Too late for Pan anyway... ever since they pulled their troops out of their western lands. I tried to make the king look less dumb... but after that move I think any efforts to get him look/sound smarter are just too difficult. :\

[IcyFox]

Too late for Pan anyway... ever since they pulled their troops out of their western lands. I tried to make the king look less dumb... but after that move I think any efforts to get him look/sound smarter are just too difficult. :\

Believe it or not, that was actually not a problem. The fatal mistake Pan made was already dealt right at the beginning of the story. After reading the Prologue & the 1st few pages of this thread, it was clear that 'Heaven' (i.e. we ) had virtually delivered Pan into Xiwu hands.