The Moral and Practical Implications of the Mongol Conquests

[Trien Chieu]

After Genghis, Ogedei put the main weight of his conquests in the direction of Europe, following erroneous reports from Jebe and Subedei that European cities were rich. There was a simlutaneous attack into Song China, but that stopped at the Xiangyang bottleneck. After Ogedei there was internal conflict, as first Guyuk and then Mongke eliminated their enemies. After Mongke had consolidated his throne, there was renewed momentum in the Chinese campaign as Khubilai outflanked the Xiangyang position via Dali. After Mongke, Khubilai and Arik Boke competed for the throne, and with Khubilai's victory he was free to make another push, this time overwhelming Song.

Why can't they create wealth on their own? Why did they have to rob/loot from others?

[426mak]

Why can't they create wealth on their own? Why did they have to rob/loot from others?

Have you tried living in the steppes. The fertility of the land is very limited hence the nomad populations have always been small compared to urban populations.
By necessity they needed to rob/loot from urban populations quite often just to stay alive.
I seriously doubted that the urban populations would have helped them out of the kindness of their hearts.

[tape]

Why can't they create wealth on their own? Why did they have to rob/loot from others?

You probably consider yourself a hard working person. How would you go about creating wealth if you were a typical Mongolian ? Keep in mind your idea of hard work, which is probably working ~8 hours a day, is the minimum amount of time you have to be herding sheep or gathering grass just to live.

[Trien Chieu]

Have you tried living in the steppes. The fertility of the land is very limited hence the nomad populations have always been small compared to urban populations.
By necessity they needed to rob/loot from urban populations quite often just to stay alive.
I seriously doubted that the urban populations would have helped them out of the kindness of their hearts.

I know life is tough but it does not justify rob/loot from other people. They can hunt or farm animals and sell them to the urban population to earn the money. They can also move to the urban area and buy fertile land to farm or open stores/restaurants selling Mongolian products/food. Again, life is tough but that is way to go.

You probably consider yourself a hard working person. How would you go about creating wealth if you were a typical Mongolian ? Keep in mind your idea of hard work, which is probably working ~8 hours a day, is the minimum amount of time you have to be herding sheep or gathering grass just to live.

When my family moved to Canada, we were poor and didn't speak any English. We made minimum wage and I had to take a part time job to earn some money. My mom worked like 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. Life was tough for us but robbing/looting from others never enter our mind. There is no doubt we were way poorer than the local people who had been live here for generations. We walked 3-5 km each way to school in the winter when the temperature was like -30C(-22F) or colder. Well, we still can make it. Why can't they? If the Mongolians moved to urban areas and have the determination to work hard, they will make it. Perhaps they won't be rich, but definitely able to make a living. Same thing apply to the poor/ghetto in the US/Canada. The reason they are poor/ghetto is because they don't have the determination to succeed. If they willing to work hard and live their lives responsibly, they will make it and will able to live a decent life. If you look at the people from the ghetto areas and see how they live their lives, you will see it's their own fault, not due to racism/discrimination against them. I am far from rich as I don't make all that much money but I live a simple life and always live below the mean so my life is ok. Again, life is tough but if you have the determination and live responsibly, you will be ok. Blaming others for personal failure is easy but it doesn't do any good.

[426mak]

[QUOTE=Trien Chieu;1071479]I know life is tough but it does not justify rob/loot from other people. They can hunt or farm animals and sell them to the urban population to earn the money. They can also move to the urban area and buy fertile land to farm or open stores/restaurants selling Mongolian products/food. Again, life is tough but that is way to go.


I can see you are a person of high morals and integrity which I respect. My parents also emigrated to the UK from Vietnam and had to work hard.
But I think you are somewhat ignorant of what life for the average Mongol was like in the middle ages. Hunting and farming in the stepped even at the best of times is difficult as the land is not very fertile.
If you can't produce enough to feed yourself how are you going to sell surplus to others.
How many urban cities would allow the mongols to move in en mass into their city.
If you don't make enough to eat how are you going to find the capital to open restaurants or buy land.
You and me have been lucky as we grew up in countries which allow us to get educated and live a comfortable life. The average Mongol in the middle ages just did not.

[pannonian]

I know life is tough but it does not justify rob/loot from other people. They can hunt or farm animals and sell them to the urban population to earn the money. They can also move to the urban area and buy fertile land to farm or open stores/restaurants selling Mongolian products/food. Again, life is tough but that is way to go.

Are you aware that China has waged wars in its history to get resources that weren't available within its borders? There's a reference to one in LOCH. China wanted something from a neighbour. The neighbour wasn't willing to give it up. China invaded the neighbour and beat them until they were willing to give that something to China.

[Trien Chieu]

I can see you are a person of high morals and integrity which I respect. My parents also emigrated to the UK from Vietnam and had to work hard.
But I think you are somewhat ignorant of what life for the average Mongol was like in the middle ages. Hunting and farming in the stepped even at the best of times is difficult as the land is not very fertile.
If you can't produce enough to feed yourself how are you going to sell surplus to others.
How many urban cities would allow the mongols to move in en mass into their city.
If you don't make enough to eat how are you going to find the capital to open restaurants or buy land.
You and me have been lucky as we grew up in countries which allow us to get educated and live a comfortable life. The average Mongol in the middle ages just did not.

Life was tough back then in Mongolia and it was a bit better in China but not easy either. There were lot of poor people from China as well and many died from famine. If the Mongolians thought life is better in China and want to join in, they can move to China and work hard to earn a living like everyone else. I am all for moving to place where it offers great opportunity so that you can work hard to succeed like everyone else. I against the idea of robbing/looting from other people no matter how tough the situation is.

[pannonian]

Life was tough back then in Mongolia and it was a bit better in China but not easy either. There were lot of poor people from China as well and many died from famine. If the Mongolians thought life is better in China and want to join in, they can move to China and work hard to earn a living like everyone else. I am all for moving to place where it offers great opportunity so that you can work hard to succeed like everyone else. I against the idea of robbing/looting from other people no matter how tough the situation is.

And do you pity those whom China made war on to get those resources that China wanted but which the other people weren't willing to share? Have you any idea at all what life was like back then? I don't think I'd need to look back beyond a couple of generations to show that your expectations are unrealistic. Go read a history book and educate yourself on the past.

[tape]

This is the new GJ vs YG debate.

It pops up every few weeks where TC claims that as long as you "work hard" you can accomplish anything.

No doubt a good work ethic, but completely unrealistic during certain times in history.

[Trien Chieu]

Are you aware that China has waged wars in its history to get resources that weren't available within its borders? There's a reference to one in LOCH. China wanted something from a neighbour. The neighbour wasn't willing to give it up. China invaded the neighbour and beat them until they were willing to give that something to China.

When did I praise such invasion?

And do you pity those whom China made war on to get those resources that China wanted but which the other people weren't willing to share? Have you any idea at all what life was like back then? I don't think I'd need to look back beyond a couple of generations to show that your expectations are unrealistic. Go read a history book and educate yourself on the past.

I pity all war victims regardless of who they are. The good thing is there are very few war now a day. People always can get resources through trade. Trade is what really make the world a great place. It benefits everyone. I do acknowledge that life was much tougher back then, but I against robbing/looting regardless.

[pannonian]

This is the new GJ vs YG debate.

It pops up every few weeks where TC claims that as long as you "work hard" you can accomplish anything.

No doubt a good work ethic, but completely unrealistic during certain times in history.

Historically, you can strive to improve youirself by moving yourself and your family to a new land and making a living there. And historically, you're opening yourself to periodic massacres from the people you settled amongst, unless your original overlords decide to "support" your colonisation of the new land by subjugating the original inhabitants and replacing them with their own people. The Han people were particularly prolific colonisers, and their governments keen adders of territory.

When did I praise such invasion?

I pity all war victims regardless of who they are. The good thing is there are very few war now a day. People always can get resources through trade. Trade is what really make the world a great place. It benefits everyone. I do acknowledge that life was much tougher back then, but I against robbing/looting regardless.

And that was what the Han did when the other people refused to trade. They made war on them, conquered their land, and forced them to pay tribute. Not much different from the Mongols whom you hate.

[Trien Chieu]

This is the new GJ vs YG debate.
It pops up every few weeks where TC claims that as long as you "work hard" you can accomplish anything.
No doubt a good work ethic, but completely unrealistic during certain times in history.

I claimed that as long as you work hard and live responsibly, you won't be in a terrible position. You may not be rich but still live a decent life. There is no need to rob/loot whatever from others for living. Rob/loot from others is wrong, nothing to debate about it.

Historically, you can strive to improve youirself by moving yourself and your family to a new land and making a living there. And historically, you're opening yourself to periodic massacres from the people you settled amongst, unless your original overlords decide to "support" your colonisation of the new land by subjugating the original inhabitants and replacing them with their own people. The Han people were particularly prolific colonisers, and their governments keen adders of territory.

I wouldn't say it never happened before, but it's not widespread. The Han people moves all over the world without the support from China and they are ok. Again, work for a living is not easy but it's way to go.

And that was what the Han did when the other people refused to trade. They made war on them, conquered their land, and forced them to pay tribute. Not much different from the Mongols whom you hate.

Nothing, China currently not invade any country. China trades with the world freely. If any country refuse to trade with China, I doubt China would do anything to them. In today world, if any country refuse to trade with you, find another one that will.

[pannonian]

I claimed that as long as you work hard and live responsibly, you won't be in a terrible position. You may not be rich but still live a decent life. There is no need to rob/loot whatever from others for living. Rob/loot from others is wrong, nothing to debate about it.

Yeah, right. Live as you prescribe, and you won't be in a terrible position. With your loud claims to your ethnic autonomy, and complaints against any attempt to make you conform to your host country's standards as cultural genocide, I wonder how you'd fare historically. Actually, I don't wonder, as I have a pretty good idea.

An ethnic alien living in a foreign country, refusing to integrate fully into that country to the point of leaving behind all ties to their ethnic background. Jews were a favourite scapegoat in Europe because of their alien culture. Never mind how hard they worked, the fact that they were distinctly alien made them the first target whenever the harvests failed. Or maybe the ruler is embroiled in a dispute, and needs something to unite his factions. The Jews are the hidden enemy behind everything that's wrong with the kingdom. Etc, etc. And closer to home, the Chinese were the target of choice in SE Asia, even as recently as the 1990s, with thousands killed in Indonesia for being ethnically Chinese. That kind of thing was the norm in the past, as you'd know if you had any knowledge of history at all.

But yeah, the enterprising Mongolian should make his way to a Chinese town and set up a shop selling authentic Mongolian food. With the anti-Jin feelings going around, I wonder how long it would be before some disgruntled Chinese villagers/townsmen lynched this Mongolian chappie for being foreign. Doubly so if he's been working hard and improving his lot, as it would make his shop an attractive target for robbers/looters. Which was what jianghu society was. Go read a history book and learn about the past.

Nothing, China currently not invade any country. China trades with the world freely. If any country refuse to trade with China, I doubt China would do anything to them. In today world, if any country refuse to trade with you, find another one that will.

And Mongolia wouldn't currently invade any country either, yet you demonise them. China trades with the world freely. And when another country refused to trade with Han China, they invaded and forced them to hand over their treasure instead. Just what you excoriate Yuan Mongolia for. But like you said, if they didn't want to trade with China, China should have traded with someone else instead. Why didn't the Chinese trade with the Arabs instead? Why did they have to make war on that other country? The Spanish were also famous for these treasures. And the British produced the finest examples of all. Why didn't Han dynasty China trade with Britain?

[jadebunny9]

I claimed that as long as you work hard and live responsibly, you won't be in a terrible position. You may not be rich but still live a decent life. There is no need to rob/loot whatever from others for living. Rob/loot from others is wrong, nothing to debate about it.

Tell that to the many millions of people living in poverty in Africa. No matter how hard you work, you're screwed.

Nothing, China currently not invade any country.

Not currently invading any country, just constantly having boundary and territory disputes with Vietnam and Japan. Always trying to claim more. And threatening Taiwan every so often.

[smurf120]

I think Tibet still currently sees China as conquerors and demanding freedom.

Noble to think that people can keep their head down and "rise" out of poverty - only if there were opportunities afforded. A child may enjoy free education if only there were schools available at all. Middle Ages Europe was about conquer and looting was probably way of life which is about same time frame as Mongolian empire.

Regarding the comment about poor people simply moving to a place with better opportunities is much harder done than said. A child born of the slums of say India will have extremely high probability of being illiterate simply due to needing to forage for food over schooling.

A family living in the slums of Chicago, will worry about getting heat cut off and having a warm jacket to fight the negative 26 degree wind chill. A minimum wage job might net $250 week after deductions for about $1k a month minus $700 rent leaving the rest for public transportation (~$80), utilities (~$50), then under $200 for food which amounts to less than $6 per day. This is assuming no other health, car, insurance, other expenses. This is not circumstance to commit crimes but definitely not as easy as just keeping their head down and working to be able to "move up" in the world.

[tape]

There are also intangibles that are nowhere near as black and white as talked about either.

Those born in poverty with illiterate parents, or are forced to grow up in an environment where their neighbors are drug dealers and most people they know being unemployed and not very successful are much likelier to gain those attributes.

You speak of your childhood, but I think many might agree that it's a "good" type of poverty, especially opposed to the city slums of Chicago. Your parents instilled upon you the value of money, responsibility, and hard work from an early age. Walking in the cold to school and being unable to afford many things other kids have is something I'm sure most first and second generation immigrants can easily relate to. It's great that you and your family are now enjoying at least moderate amounts of success, but you really should not judge others so harshly with such a broad stroke.

I work with a lot of inner city kids since a few of my friends are teachers (and we grew up in the ghetto) and they've asked me help out with social work on my spare time, and some of their childhoods were and still are horrifying. The stereotypical strict asian parenting that the media jokes about is heaven compared to some of the stuff these kids have to go through. Half of them randomly lose electricity, heating, and water a few times a year for days and even weeks at a time, and many go to school just to sleep and eat at times because their household is such a mess and there's nothing to feed them.

Didn't mean to go on a rant, but in relation to the topic, if even in this modern age people are in such conditions, imagine centuries ago.

Edit: I hope you don't take this as an attack on you or your values. Just pointing out that you had great parents that enabled you to thrive. Some people don't even have that.

[pannonian]

Edit: I hope you don't take this as an attack on you or your values. Just pointing out that you had great parents that enabled you to thrive. Some people don't even have that.

And historically, expecting everyone to have that access to social mobility is just wrong. Since we're talking about historical times, and judging historical peoples, we should look at things through the prism of these times. Otherwise, I'd like TC to explain, if China is so willing to trade for everything and are unwarlike, why Han-dynasty China went to war to get what it wanted. Why didn't the Han emperor trade with 19th century Britain for those things? If 13th century Mongols should be judged by 20th century mores, I'd like TC's explanation why 1st century China didn't establish trade relations with 19th century Britain, and why it invaded another country to loot their treasure.

[shortsight]

Trien Chieu, interesting read, but moot argument. You may have difficult and tough life back then, but to compare what you went through vs the Mongols generations after generations of hardship to judge their invasion is overly simplistic. For someone with your background, I expect one that is more realistic than just "why can't they work harder rather than invading and killing people". Mongols back then was even subjected to China dynasty and under constant attack from Tatars. So, just by working hard and mind your own business back then will end up getting beaten by someone stronger. Mongols grew their empire starting from simply survival, and then having tasted the success became obsessed.

If there's no one to think of invading or finding new territories, no one would have known that the world is not flat, the North America until today would have filled with red Indians, and you never know there's a place called Canada that your family could move over as well.

Study history and appreciate the happenings and circumstances. By no means you cannot question, but to question why they kill when they can just work hard to earn a living without doing what is evil is a senseless and immature interrogation of history.

[Trien Chieu]

Tell that to the many millions of people living in poverty in Africa. No matter how hard you work, you're screwed.

If Africa really want to change for the better they need many major changes.
1. Don't create the children that they can't raise and don't have to many children. One or two would be enough.
2. Work hard and live responsibly. Don't rely on charity from foreign countries.
3. Open up the market for trade. Invite international corporations to open factories there. Africa is not a dry land with nothing. It has rich natural resources such as oil, gold, diamond, ect.

Not currently invading any country, just constantly having boundary and territory disputes with Vietnam and Japan. Always trying to claim more. And threatening Taiwan every so often.

Territory disputes is not the same as invasions.

I think Tibet still currently sees China as conquerors and demanding freedom.

Was Tibebt not part of China for centuries? I believe only small minority of people from Tibet want independence.

Noble to think that people can keep their head down and "rise" out of poverty - only if there were opportunities afforded. A child may enjoy free education if only there were schools available at all. Middle Ages Europe was about conquer and looting was probably way of life which is about same time frame as Mongolian empire.

Regarding the comment about poor people simply moving to a place with better opportunities is much harder done than said. A child born of the slums of say India will have extremely high probability of being illiterate simply due to needing to forage for food over schooling.

Again, life was much tougher back then but if you really have the determination and willing to work hard, you still able to survive. No need for robbing and looting and it's wrong.

A family living in the slums of Chicago, will worry about getting heat cut off and having a warm jacket to fight the negative 26 degree wind chill. A minimum wage job might net $250 week after deductions for about $1k a month minus $700 rent leaving the rest for public transportation (~$80), utilities (~$50), then under $200 for food which amounts to less than $6 per day. This is assuming no other health, car, insurance, other expenses. This is not circumstance to commit crimes but definitely not as easy as just keeping their head down and working to be able to "move up" in the world.

I am sorry to say this but 40 hours/week is too little. In this situation, you have to work much more hours. For people who earn minimum wage, they need to work at least 70 hours/week in order to have a decent living. My mom worked more than 70, around 80, hours/week when we first came to Canada.

There are also intangibles that are nowhere near as black and white as talked about either.

Those born in poverty with illiterate parents, or are forced to grow up in an environment where their neighbors are drug dealers and most people they know being unemployed and not very successful are much likelier to gain those attributes.

You speak of your childhood, but I think many might agree that it's a "good" type of poverty, especially opposed to the city slums of Chicago. Your parents instilled upon you the value of money, responsibility, and hard work from an early age. Walking in the cold to school and being unable to afford many things other kids have is something I'm sure most first and second generation immigrants can easily relate to. It's great that you and your family are now enjoying at least moderate amounts of success, but you really should not judge others so harshly with such a broad stroke.

I work with a lot of inner city kids since a few of my friends are teachers (and we grew up in the ghetto) and they've asked me help out with social work on my spare time, and some of their childhoods were and still are horrifying. The stereotypical strict asian parenting that the media jokes about is heaven compared to some of the stuff these kids have to go through. Half of them randomly lose electricity, heating, and water a few times a year for days and even weeks at a time, and many go to school just to sleep and eat at times because their household is such a mess and there's nothing to feed them.

Didn't mean to go on a rant, but in relation to the topic, if even in this modern age people are in such conditions, imagine centuries ago.

Edit: I hope you don't take this as an attack on you or your values. Just pointing out that you had great parents that enabled you to thrive. Some people don't even have that.

If the people from the inner city are willing to live the life like us, they will for sure make it. It's their own fault for being where they are. It's not racism or discrimination as they claimed. Do you watch the reality show from A&E "THE FIRST 48"? The people who are involved in crime are young and strong. If they willing to work, they can do all kinds of work but no, they are to good to work and live like everyone else. It's easier to earn the money by selling drugs or robbing.

And historically, expecting everyone to have that access to social mobility is just wrong. Since we're talking about historical times, and judging historical peoples, we should look at things through the prism of these times. Otherwise, I'd like TC to explain, if China is so willing to trade for everything and are unwarlike, why Han-dynasty China went to war to get what it wanted. Why didn't the Han emperor trade with 19th century Britain for those things? If 13th century Mongols should be judged by 20th century mores, I'd like TC's explanation why 1st century China didn't establish trade relations with 19th century Britain, and why it invaded another country to loot their treasure.

When did I praise China when they invaded other countries? Of course it's wrong but they didn't cause nearly as much pain and suffering to the local people like the Mongols did. I didn't recall they raped and massacred the local people who were unable to fight back. Even if they did, it's in a much smaller scale. Again, I didn't condone such actions by the ancient Chinese but the Mongols was the worse among them.

[jadebunny9]

If Africa really want to change for the better they need many major changes.
1. Don't create the children that they can't raise and don't have to many children. One or two would be enough.
2. Work hard and live responsibly. Don't rely on charity from foreign countries.
3. Open up the market for trade. Invite international corporations to open factories there. Africa is not a dry land with nothing. It has rich natural resources such as oil, gold, diamond, ect.

What...

I believe only small minority of people from Tibet want independence.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

It's their own fault for being where they are.

What?

Again, I didn't condone such actions by the ancient Chinese but the Mongols was the worse among them.

Whut?


I can't even....oh forget it.


Back on topic. It was probably too taxing for them to be attacking on so many fronts, so they were taking things one by one.