Wuxia translations: Which sayings are untranslatable ?

[tape]

I feel some phrases we commonly hear in wuxia stories that give us a sense of mystery and awe are not translatable to English because it's simply not part of the vernacular that is used.

For example, a common wuxia saying like "Being invincible is the most lonely" a la Dugu Qiubai simply doesn't hold much weight if you try to translate it. There just isn't a western equivalent to the feeling that is supposed to be evoked. Sure Hercules dominated everybody in strength, or Robin Hood was the best archer in the world, but they never lamented on the fact that they can't find a worth adversary. As such, it's not a normal thing to think about to Western audiences. While I was rereading the Dagger Lee translations, that exact phrase came up during a conversation with Li Xunhuan and Lu Fengxian. It's normal to just skim over that sentence if you weren't a chinese wuxia fan, but once you translate it in your head you can't help but nod and feel for what he said.

What other common phrases do you think are almost untranslatable in the sense that most of the meaning is lost, and are there any ways around it? I understand there are tons of things that must be lost in translation from culture to culture, but since there is a dedicated wuxia translation forum here that is wonderful, maybe some of the things can be discussed. Is it simply a byproduct of knowing the genre and being able to enjoy it more?

This is a thought that is connected with the Passionless Valley translation, where I think it is literally correct, but Heartless Valley would be more correct in English because it implies a negative tone, but Heartless Grove sounds better to the ear even though it is probably the least technically correct of all.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

'Forcing a tiger/dog to jump the wall' also doesn't translate well.

Pretty much any phrase that refers to historical Chinese events loose their meaning in translation.

[whiteskwirl]

This is a thought that is connected with the Passionless Valley translation, where I think it is literally correct, but Heartless Valley would be more correct in English because it implies a negative tone, but Heartless Grove sounds better to the ear even though it is probably the least technically correct of all.

No. Passionless is literally incorrect as it denotes indifference as I stated in the other thread. 絕情 is translated unambiguously as heartless or cruel in dictionaries, and C-C dictionaries define it as 無情 or 狠心. The meaning is someone who acts are feels cruelly or without sympathy or feeling for another, on the opposite end of the spectrum from indifference, which is what passionless denotes as passion is a strong desire or will for or to do something.

Furthermore 谷 is valley plain and simple. A grove is a stand of trees. You can't just swap them out for whichever one you think sounds better.

You're right that many words and phrases are "untranslatable", but actually everything can be translated from one language to another, but often you would need to use more words or even several sentences to adequately get across the meaning (such as 俠 which you would need several paragraphs to adequately describe in English). So one-to-one translations are often not possible between languages.

However, in the case of 絕情谷, a one-to-one translation is possible: Heartless Valley. Sorry if you don't think it sounds good enough, but that is the translation for it. Or Cruel Valley if you prefer.

For example, a common wuxia saying like "Being invincible is the most lonely" a la Dugu Qiubai simply doesn't hold much weight if you try to translate it.

I don't understand, you are using a translation to argue that a translation is not possible. What's hard to understand about "Being invincible is the most lonely"? You just described, in English, the meaning and feeling of it. What does Hercules and Robin Hood have to do with the understanding of the meaning of a phrase? Yes, Dugu Qiubai lamented the fact he couldn't find a worthy adversary, you just rendered that in English for all to understand.

It is true that some things in Chinese sound better and convey the feeling better than the English translation could. A good example of that is all the nicknames and martial arts move names that are used. For example, in a Wen Rui'an story there is the nickname 神光離合. I don't remember what I translated that as, but I'm sure it wasn't adequate. What can I do with that? I can get the feeling of some divine light going out and coming back, but to put that in English would take several words and would sound awkward, and because of that it would lack the succinctness of the Chinese original, which uses only four characters.

Or how about the nickname in a different story: 下三濫. This is something that resists a one-to-one translation to English because the Chinese used is based on contexts specific to Chinese culture and use of the language. I translated it as "bastard", but that's not really right. The phrase means someone who is low-class or rotten, a goof-for-nothing. It can also denote a prostitute depending on the context. The phrase originates from the milling of wheat flour, in which several passes or cycles are used to grind the flour. The third pass contains a lot of bad quality flour, so the phrase. An alternate for the last character is 爛. With reference to people it referred to the last three ranks of nine schools of thought: prostitutes (娼妓), thieves/robbers (盜), and beggars (乞丐). So the phrase also denotes a low social rank.

So as you can see, that simple three word phrase packs a lot of meaning and context, so how can you translate that into English without leaving behind all that I just described above? The answer is you can't. So I can translate it as bastard or low-class or good-for-nothing, all of which would suffice in showing the ill-regarded nature of the phrase and the person said phrase is attached to, but you do miss out on a lot of nuance. But that's how it is with translating; you are always forced to make compromises and settle and you can't avoid leaving things behind. This is true for translating into all languages. This is also why the most important thing for a translator is being really good at the target language, more so that the source language. Because you can look up a word's meaning, but rendering that meaning into the target language is something that requires an intimate knowledge of that language.

[Ian Liew]

Could "神光離合" be translated, in essence, to "Reunion of Heavenly Light"?

[Ken Cheng]

It actually might be more productive to discuss what translations of wuxia concepts from Chinese to English *do* work (as in they are accurate, apt, and sound natural and poetic in English as well as Chinese). MOST wuxia concepts don't sound right in English; it's the exceedingly rare one that does. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single one.

[Ian Liew]

It actually might be more productive to discuss what translations of wuxia concepts from Chinese to English *do* work (as in they are accurate, apt, and sound natural and poetic in English as well as Chinese). MOST wuxia concepts don't sound right in English; it's the exceedingly rare one that does. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single one.

Weren't you particularly fond of "thy way upon thyself"?

[Ken Cheng]

Weren't you particularly fond of "thy way upon thyself"?

That was a great one. I think so many stray thoughts that sooner or later, most of them get lost over time.

OTHER than that one, however, there really aren't many.

[mawguy]

Weren't you particularly fond of "thy way upon thyself"?

may i ask what the chinese phrase is?

[Ken Cheng]

may i ask what the chinese phrase is?

以彼之道, 還之彼身

[mawguy]

以彼之道, 還之彼身

thanks! and yes, i agree with you that the translation is excellent--succinct, too, which is rare for english translations!