Mei Chaofeng & Li Mochou Tragic / Interesting Characters of Condor Heroes Trilogy?

[Liljanger]

1. Mei Chaofeng
After reading the third edition translated by Athena, i kind of pitied her. She fell in love with the wrong man and ruined her life forever. If HYS had disclosed his feelings for her and had she accepted it, she might have a much happier life. But if that had happen we might not have Huang Rong. MCF may be ruthless to others, but she is nice to those around her i.e. HYS, HR and YK. She sacrificed her own life to save her master's life.

2. Li Mochou
As for her, I will only make reference to the little info JY provided and adaptation made by YZ. She lived in the tomb for most of her life, did not know what is humanity. Just when she thought she found a man whom she loved and can depend on, the guy chucked her aside and went for another woman. What makes it interesting is, she too cares for those around her. She did not have the heart to kill that sweet talker guy who dumped her. She took good care of GX because she thought that it was XLN's child, and she admired YG's devotion to Xiaolongnu.

JY was trying to say that even the most ruthless person has compassion and loyalty to those around them?

[tape]

1. About Mei, when she first reappeared at the Jin palace there was a scene where she hooked HR with her whip accidentally and immediately thought that she made a big mistake in injuring HR (forgetting HR wore the Hedgehog vest) and wanted to kill her on the spot so that her master wouldn't find out. She only didn't strike because she realized HR was uninjured.

2. Eh, I haven't read ROCH in a while, but doesn't ROCH start off with her killing him and his whole family? She was thwarted by a Shaolin monk years ago and was forced into promising to wait X amount of years before killing him again I thought?

JY is humanizing his characters so they're more fleshed out and have motives for their actions and characters, but it's a technique I don't really like in wuxia. Mass murderers [of complete innocents] are forgiven because there's a scene of them being nice to one person.

[MrWErD]

1. Mei Chaofeng
After reading the third edition translated by Athena, i kind of pitied her. She fell in love with the wrong man and ruined her life forever. If HYS had disclosed his feelings for her and had she accepted it, she might have a much happier life. But if that had happen we might not have Huang Rong. MCF may be ruthless to others, but she is nice to those around her i.e. HYS, HR and YK. She sacrificed her own life to save her master's life.

2. Li Mochou
As for her, I will only make reference to the little info JY provided and adaptation made by YZ. She lived in the tomb for most of her life, did not know what is humanity. Just when she thought she found a man whom she loved and can depend on, the guy chucked her aside and went for another woman. What makes it interesting is, she too cares for those around her. She did not have the heart to kill that sweet talker guy who dumped her. She took good care of GX because she thought that it was XLN's child, and she admired YG's devotion to Xiaolongnu.

JY was trying to say that even the most ruthless person has compassion and loyalty to those around them?

Even the very worse of humanity has had moments like those. Everyone has a few scrappings of decency. Who in history is completely evil, 100%?

Oh, they turned evil cause of love, you say? Bad shit happens to everyone, you can't really use one's own personal tragedies as an excuse to turn into a complete monster and murder scores of people for selfish reasons, which both Mei Chaofeng and Li Mochou did. Most people may have a soft spot for them because they're women, and because they're hot, but I don't pity their fates one bit. In my opinion, their deaths should be far worse than what they end up with. In fact, Mei Chaofeng's ending is actually kind of a happy one, which kind of ticks me off, now that I think about it.

Take Xie Xun for a better example. His whole family (wife, child, parents) was slaughtered by his own martial arts master. He then killed scores of people for selfish reasons, revenge, but after over a decade in exile, he repented and spent the rest of his life in Shaolin, a truly changed man. Xie Xun felt bad about his actions. Neither Mei Chaofeng nor Li Mochou did.

Personally, I don't think their characters are all that interesting. Now, Ouyang Feng, there's a villain I'll like to watch. In an era where every media in the world had to turn their antagonists into "deep" and "conflicted" characters, a person like him is truly refreshing to read/watch.

[i_fotted]

i think thats what makes LOCH my favorite novel of all time. it really emphasizes the theme of being a hero and off course on the other side there is the villain. mei is the epitome of a true villain. if you want to get technical about it, think of all those innocent souls she took for her to learn martial art and apply that to your logic.

[Malevolent]

These two are psychopathic killers who were brought up by eccentric people. They had no intention of turning a new leaf. But Yang Kang is the one I consider epitome villain. He refused to acknowledge his dad, betrayed his masters, sworn brother and nation. Surprise he had a son like YG who was a complete opposite.

[kyss of the sword]

Mcf and lmc were at heart short tempered and ruthless. But they were capable of love and loyalty, mcf to her husband and lmc to guoxiang. It just happened they had bad experiences. Mcf was born poor and treated badly before hys took her in. Her husband also lead her down the wrong path when he read 9yin wrongly and practised their skills by killing people.
lmc was tricked by her faithless lover and lost her self to her rage. If she had good guidence, she might have turned out good.

[ToastedRossi]

2. Li Mochou
As for her, I will only make reference to the little info JY provided and adaptation made by YZ. She lived in the tomb for most of her life, did not know what is humanity. Just when she thought she found a man whom she loved and can depend on, the guy chucked her aside and went for another woman. What makes it interesting is, she too cares for those around her. She did not have the heart to kill that sweet talker guy who dumped her.

That's not quite what happened. She tried to attack Lu Dingjun at his wedding, but was beaten off by a monk. That monk forced her to give the couple 10 years grace, and the 10 years deadline finished up at the start of the novel.

She took good care of GX because she thought that it was XLN's child, and she admired YG's devotion to Xiaolongnu.

She grew attached to Guo Xiang after caring for her. It's more motherhood instinct than anything else.

JY was trying to say that even the most ruthless person has compassion and loyalty to those around them?

These two characters aren't the most ruthless people. The awfulness that people can bring themselves to is explored in a Deadly Secret and it features much more horrible people. However, Mei Chaofeng and Li Mochou are shown to have more than just evil qualities. The same can be said of most Jin Yong characters.

JY is humanizing his characters so they're more fleshed out and have motives for their actions and characters, but it's a technique I don't really like in wuxia. Mass murderers [of complete innocents] are forgiven because there's a scene of them being nice to one person.

It's more that Jin Yong doesn't believe in revenge. You can take note of how revenge is a major most of his protagonists, and how often they fail to kill their target. Instead, retribution is more likely to be resolved in a karmic fashion.

[MrWErD]

Mcf and lmc were at heart short tempered and ruthless. But they were capable of love and loyalty, mcf to her husband and lmc to guoxiang. It just happened they had bad experiences. Mcf was born poor and treated badly before hys took her in. Her husband also lead her down the wrong path when he read 9yin wrongly and practised their skills by killing people.
lmc was tricked by her faithless lover and lost her self to her rage. If she had good guidence, she might have turned out good.

A lot of people are born poor, a lot of people will make a mistake, a lot of people will turn bitter, but only a handful will choose to take out their problems on innocent bystanders and commit murders in the dozens, if not hundreds. Don't put all the blame on their lovers. In the end, it was their own choices that made them what they are.

Besides, I find it a bit funny that people insist that Li Mochou's lover had fault in her transformation. Mei Chaofeng? Okay, I'll let that slide, but the other one is really unfair. So they dated for a while, whispered sweet nothings to each other, but in the end, the man chose someone else? Okay, so he broke her heart, but is that any reason to go berserk and kill people? Did they even sleep with each other? Talk about an overreaction. Her lover may have wronged her, but Li Mochou herself chose to be a monster. There should be no sympathies for her.

[i_fotted]

i dont find any sympathy for either of those 2 female villains, especially LMC. as stated above, i thought it was actually kinda ridiculous. i know its kinda extreme but just imagine you breaking up with your significant other and then you proceed to go on a killing rampage because you cant get over it. it doesnt make any sense even in the wuxia world, and i dont care how much remorse you have.

[Eastern Heretic]

i dont find any sympathy for either of those 2 female villains, especially LMC. as stated above, i thought it was actually kinda ridiculous. i know its kinda extreme but just imagine you breaking up with your significant other and then you proceed to go on a killing rampage because you cant get over it. it doesnt make any sense even in the wuxia world, and i dont care how much remorse you have.

Flying on trees, and shooting burst of energy makes no sense either. Jianghu is an unpredictable world with unpredictable people. I like wuxia bcoz only the strongest will survive. You don't have to worry about the cops coming after you for killing that annoying person who got on your nerves

[Chilian Xianzi]

A lot of people are born poor, a lot of people will make a mistake, a lot of people will turn bitter, but only a handful will choose to take out their problems on innocent bystanders and commit murders in the dozens, if not hundreds. Don't put all the blame on their lovers. In the end, it was their own choices that made them what they are.

Besides, I find it a bit funny that people insist that Li Mochou's lover had fault in her transformation. Mei Chaofeng? Okay, I'll let that slide, but the other one is really unfair. So they dated for a while, whispered sweet nothings to each other, but in the end, the man chose someone else? Okay, so he broke her heart, but is that any reason to go berserk and kill people? Did they even sleep with each other? Talk about an overreaction. Her lover may have wronged her, but Li Mochou herself chose to be a monster. There should be no sympathies for her.

Not everyone studied moral lessons or Confucian back then. You have to remember these people don't live in modern society. Try telling Shi Huangdi that he is wrong for sacrificing so many lives to build the Great Wall. I doubt he gives a damn.

I am sure Lu zhanyuan must have done something really bad to turn a kind lady into a cold blooded killer [kind part as per mentioned in novel, JY's fault for leaving the details out so I am only going to blame LMC's lover for turning her to what she is.]

HR wasn't that kind in the beginning either. If she had fallen for YK instead of GJ she would have been another evil one

[MrWErD]

I am sure Lu zhanyuan must have done something really bad to turn a kind lady into a cold blooded killer [kind part as per mentioned in novel, JY's fault for leaving the details out so I am only going to blame LMC's lover for turning her to what she is.]

This is exactly what I was talking about. Innocent until proven guilty. Jin Yong didn't provide any details, but it must have been the lover's fault that she turned out that way. Just cause the Li Mochou used to be a nice girl in her youth. Nevermind that what she turned into was a cold-blooded monster who butchered whole families.

Not everyone studied moral lessons or Confucian back then. You have to remember these people don't live in modern society. Try telling Shi Huangdi that he is wrong for sacrificing so many lives to build the Great Wall. I doubt he gives a damn.

Except nobody here is trying to pass Shi Huangdi off as an innocent girl who only did all the bad stuff in her life cause she suffered a broken heart.

HR wasn't that kind in the beginning either. If she had fallen for YK instead of GJ she would have been another evil one

Sure, if Yang Kang, our little princeling, would even go near a dirty begger...

[blurry]

Except nobody here is trying to pass Shi Huangdi off as an innocent girl who only did all the bad stuff in her life cause she suffered a broken heart.

Doesnt matter if they did all the bad stuff or good stuff because eventually they are all going to die. Might as well do as you wish and enjoy life in the jianghu as much as you can. GX, QF, ZWJ or YG did lots of good stuffs and were heroes but they could not escape death either.

Between LMC and MCF, I kinda like MCF more because she is loyal to her master. LMC only loved herself and no one else.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

Anyone else think JY has double standards for female when compared to male villains.

Male villains like Xie Xun and Qiu Qianren are given the opportuinty to reform themsleves. But female villains are given no such opportunity.

[Malevolent]

Anyone else think JY has double standards for female when compared to male villains.

Male villains like Xie Xun and Qiu Qianren are given the opportuinty to reform themsleves. But female villains are given no such opportunity.

JY belongs to the old school, male chauvinist. Well GF didn't die a miserable death though

[Ken Cheng]

Mui Chiu Fung and Lee Mok Sau share a number of narrative parallels, and I believe Jin Yong *did* intend for them to be analogues of each other, but whereas I find Mui Chiu Fung a sympathetic character, I somehow cannot say the same for Lee Mok Sau.

[ToastedRossi]

Anyone else think JY has double standards for female when compared to male villains.

Male villains like Xie Xun and Qiu Qianren are given the opportuinty to reform themsleves. But female villains are given no such opportunity.

There aren't that many female villains in Jin Yong's novels. Here's a pretty complete list of the ones that had much story time:

The Book and the Sword - none
Sword Stained with Royal Blood - He Tieshou, He Hongyao
The Legend of the Condor Heroes - Mei Chaofeng
Fox Volant of the Snowy Mountain - none of note
The Return of the Condor Heroes - Li Mochou, Guo Fu
The Young Flying Fox - none of note
The Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber - Miejue, Zhou Zhirou
A Deadly Secret - none
Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils - Madam Ma
Ode to Gallantry - Ding Dang
The Smiling, Proud Wanderer - none
The Deer and the Cauldron - Fake Dowager, Su Quan

Of this list, He Tieshou, Guo Fu, Zhou Zhirou and Su Quan get reformed. I don't feel that this is all that gender-imbalanced.

Mui Chiu Fung and Lee Mok Sau share a number of narrative parallels, and I believe Jin Yong *did* intend for them to be analogues of each other, but whereas I find Mui Chiu Fung a sympathetic character, I somehow cannot say the same for Lee Mok Sau.

Don't they offer very different roles in their stories though? Li Mochou seems to act more like a catalyst for the story's events and as a foil to Xiao Longnu. Mei Chaofeng seems to act as a way to introduce the reader into the world of the Greats.

[i_fotted]

i dont know if i can consider Guo Fu a villain. she is just a stupid little brat.

[i_fotted]

you left out A'zi from DGSD. she's definitely a villain.

[Steven Chen]

After reading the novel and watching all adaptations i still dont sympathize with them even though in the recent series LMC looks beautiful.

I was kinda hoping GF would get punished for what she had done to YG but I guess when you are the national hero's daughter you get exempted.