Murong Fu-why was his attempts so feeble?

[hyoyatika]

To restore his Yen kingdom, that is. Off the top of my head, I could think of several ideas he could had done to help consolidate power, but he didn't.

1. Could had allied with Beggar Sect to fight the Khitans. This way, he could had won the hearts of people. Could also tried to either usurp the leadership position or influence elders/branch leaders to leave and join him instead. Heck, when Xiao Feng was exposed as a Khitan, he could had became the leader had he entered the picture!

Why would the Beggar Sect want to ally with MRF? Well, they are known to be heroic, so if MRF agree to battle Khitans alongside them, I don't see them turning MRF down!

2. Why didn't MRF made use of DY's obsession with WYY to ally with Dali? MRF didn't really care for WYY, so I can see him using his cousin as a pawn to revive the Yen kingdom. Hell, he didn't hesistate to kill his closest buddies just to impress DYQ. I'm sure MRF would had learn some military tactics...but yet he didn't employ the most simple Beauty Trap/Mei Ren Ji?

3. Why didn't MRF try to make an undertable pact with DCQ? Openly colluding with DCQ won't do MRF's reputation any good, but what if he could collude with DCQ secretly? By the time the novel roll about, I seem to get the impression that DCQ was at a stage of his martial arts "career" whereby he just wanted to kick back; ok I think he was still training but it wasn't the most important thing to him. A large part of his story was having people sing praises of him. Basically, he wanted people to look up to him/fame.

What if MRF offered to give DCQ a high ranking official post if Yen kingdom is restored? DCQ would get the fame, power and luxury he wanted. In return, DCQ seem to have a knack of getting low-level fighters, who could act as MRF's soldiers. Sure, they won't be super highly skilled, but well, a kingdom need foot soldiers. Plus, given the way DCQ uses his guys, I'm sure he won't mind sparing his guys to MRF as long as he gets something in return.

I seem to get the feeling that MRF didn't exactly put a lot of heart and ideas into reviving his Yen kingdom?!

[Ken Cheng]

I think Mo Ying F'uk, for all his vast ambition, was a bit incompetent.

[ToastedRossi]

The problem is that those options wouldn't be enough. To push the Khitans out of Yan Mu Rongfu needed to have the power of an entire kingdom behind him. Look at his two plans: the first was to marry into Xi Xia, the second was adopt himself into the Dali royal family. Both of them would have given him official control of military forces and enabled him to have some hope of success.

Just allying himself to a kingdom isn't going to give him enough control. Mu Rongfu doesn't have enough to offer so it just means that he's going to be a servant of that power. And anything less than a kingdom isn't going to be powerful enough to contribute much to pushing the Khitans out of Yan.

[hyoyatika]

The problem is that those options wouldn't be enough. To push the Khitans out of Yan Mu Rongfu needed to have the power of an entire kingdom behind him. Look at his two plans: the first was to marry into Xi Xia, the second was adopt himself into the Dali royal family. Both of them would have given him official control of military forces and enabled him to have some hope of success.

Just allying himself to a kingdom isn't going to give him enough control. Mu Rongfu doesn't have enough to offer so it just means that he's going to be a servant of that power. And anything less than a kingdom isn't going to be powerful enough to contribute much to pushing the Khitans out of Yan.

I think Beggar Sect had more strength than Xi Xia Kingdom. Don't look down on those beggars!

Adopting into Dali under DYQ seems like a worse off idea than controling DY via WYY.

Sure, those steps won't guarantee him restoring Yen kingdom, but those are massive steps that can get him much nearer.

[ToastedRossi]

I think Beggar Sect had more strength than Xi Xia Kingdom. Don't look down on those beggars!

Adopting into Dali under DYQ seems like a worse off idea than controling DY via WYY.

Sure, those steps won't guarantee him restoring Yen kingdom, but those are massive steps that can get him much nearer.

The size of the steps makes a very big difference. Dali is the weakest of the countries in the book, but even they have a decent sized population and a real army. If Murong Fu were to take over the kingdom then he would have a base from which to operate, and even if he were to be unable to achieve his goal, it's a base that his descendants can build upon.

Now compare that to an alliance with the Beggar Sect. The first problem is that Murong Fu doesn't have very much to offer. Next, let's imagine that they manage to retake a portion of Yan; what would the Beggar Sect do with that territory? They can't manage it themselves, and Yan died over 600 years beforehand so none of them are going to have any affection for it. They're all Song citizens so they're probably going to hand what they take to the Song government. How is any of this going to help Murong Fu?

[hyoyatika]

The size of the steps makes a very big difference. Dali is the weakest of the countries in the book, but even they have a decent sized population and a real army. If Murong Fu were to take over the kingdom then he would have a base from which to operate, and even if he were to be unable to achieve his goal, it's a base that his descendants can build upon.

Now compare that to an alliance with the Beggar Sect. The first problem is that Murong Fu doesn't have very much to offer. Next, let's imagine that they manage to retake a portion of Yan; what would the Beggar Sect do with that territory? They can't manage it themselves, and Yan died over 600 years beforehand so none of them are going to have any affection for it. They're all Song citizens so they're probably going to hand what they take to the Song government. How is any of this going to help Murong Fu?

1. So we agree that having Dali would aid MRF. We are disagreeing on the basis of how to get Dali. I'm saying wouldn't it be easier controlling DY via WYY rather than trying to usurp DYQ or asking DYQ for favor?

2. The Beggar Sect was the biggest sect at that time (maybe you could argue Shaolin, but cmon, Shaolin is not an option). As I said, MRF could offer to ally with them to fight the Khitans, thereby gaining their trust. If he had done so early, when Xiao Feng was exposed as a Khitan, he could had become the leader. Or maybe he would had been elected as the leader over Xiao Feng for his seeming brains instead. The Beggar Sect had military strength. They were fighting the Khitans. Even in the condor series, they were fighting the Jins and Mongols. The sheer size of the Beggar Sect allowed them to act like an army.

[ToastedRossi]

1. So we agree that having Dali would aid MRF. We are disagreeing on the basis of how to get Dali. I'm saying, being able to control Dali would be easier. Wouldn't it be easier controlling DY via WYY rather than trying to usurp DYQ or asking DYQ for favor?

There was never any realistic way for Murong Fu to control Duan Yu to begin with. Even if he could control Wang Yuyan after he gives her to Duan Yu, Duan Yu would always put the interests of his country over what she would say. Moreover, Murong Fu still had some affection for Wang Yuyan so he would never give her to Duan Yu.

2. The Beggar Sect was the biggest sect at that time (maybe you could argue Shaolin, but cmon, Shaolin is not an option). As I said, MRF could offer to ally with them to fight the Khitans, thereby gaining their trust. If he had done so early, when Xiao Feng was exposed as a Khitan, he could had become the leader. Or maybe he would had been elected as the leader over Xiao Feng for his seeming brains instead. The Beggar Sect had military strength. They were fighting the Khitans. Even in the condor series, they were fighting the Jins and Mongols. The sheer size of the Beggar Sect allowed them to act like an army.

And they still failed against all of those powers. The Beggar Sect is a big deal in Jianghu, but they're not very significant when facing off against an actual kingdom. And again it was an alliance where Murong Fu could offer nothing to the Beggar Sect, so there's no reason for them to do anything for him.

The idea of him becoming the new leader of the Beggar Sect doesn't make any sense. The leaders aren't particularly fond of him and he's not a member to begin with so why would they want him?

[hyoyatika]

There was never any realistic way for Murong Fu to control Duan Yu to begin with. Even if he could control Wang Yuyan after he gives her to Duan Yu, Duan Yu would always put the interests of his country over what she would say. Moreover, Murong Fu still had some affection for Wang Yuyan so he would never give her to Duan Yu.

What? I don't think MRF had affection for WYY. I'm sure most people would agree that he didn't have much affection for WYY; he was just annoyed with DY and didn't like the idea of WYY with DY, kinda like a kid refusing to lend someone else play with his toy even when he wasn't playing with it.

Furthermore, MRF always put restoring his kingdom above all.

DY isn't an idiot, but I'm sure with enough cajoling from WYY, he would relent and spare MRF some army.

Or MRF could try usurp DY's throne. Again, am sure it would be easier usurping DYQ.

And they still failed against all of those powers. The Beggar Sect is a big deal in Jianghu, but they're not very significant when facing off against an actual kingdom. And again it was an alliance where Murong Fu could offer nothing to the Beggar Sect, so there's no reason for them to do anything for him.

Totally wrong. During LOCH/ROCH, it was stated that the Song emperor was obsessed with pleasures of life and did little to help defend the country and rarely dispatched soldiers to aid the defence of Xiangyang. It was the commoners and heroes of Beggar Sect fighting.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying Beggar Sect is the equal of an army and being the leader means the Yen kingdom gets restored. However, it is a good start towards that.

I've already explained why an alliance can work between Beggar Sect and MRF. The Beggar Sect was fighting the Khitans. If MRF offered to fight alongside them, there was no reason to turn him down. Note that at this point, no one in the wulin knew much about MRF or his ill intents. If he had acted like he was heroic and fought alongside the Beggar Sect, then he would had been able to slowly gain their trust. Amongst the Beggar Sect, MRF would probably only rank lower than Xiao Feng, which wouldn't be a shame.

And what would happen when Wang JianTong wanted to pass on his leadership? MRF might even end up being on the list of consideration.

The idea of him becoming the new leader of the Beggar Sect doesn't make any sense. The leaders aren't particularly fond of him and he's not a member to begin with so why would they want him?

The premise was that MRF would be fighting alongside them. YTZ wasn't a member to begin with, and that didn't stop them from electing him, did it? HR wasn't a member either. I'm not sure, but YLQ wasn't either.

If becoming the new leader of the Beggar Sect meant he now had a small army, I don't think he would say no. He was willing to go under DYQ and changed his surname. How is leading the number one sect in the wulin any worse than that?

[wkeej]

Perhaps, MRF is too proud to ask Beggar Union and DY for assistance.
It will be easier to go the Xixia's route - afterall, the choosing of son-in-law is black-and-white.

[Ken Cheng]

Perhaps, MRF is too proud to ask Beggar Union and DY for assistance.
It will be easier to go the Xixia's route - afterall, the choosing of son-in-law is black-and-white.

Mo Yung F'uk struck me as type who would stoop as low as necessary to attain his goal.

[hyoyatika]

Perhaps, MRF is too proud to ask Beggar Union and DY for assistance.
It will be easier to go the Xixia's route - afterall, the choosing of son-in-law is black-and-white.

What Ken said + with Beggar Sect, he would be fighting alongside as equals.

As for DY, he could see it as using DY as a puppet via WYY.

[wkeej]

What Ken said + with Beggar Sect, he would be fighting alongside as equals.

As for DY, he could see it as using DY as a puppet via WYY.

MRF "hated" DY and most unlikely will want to ask help from him whatever it is.
Beggar Union has been under QF then and being opponents, MRF is unlikely to want to infiltrate the union.

TO MRF, he is the Yan Empire crown prince. Marrying Xixia princess seems to be of equal status.

[hyoyatika]

MRF "hated" DY and most unlikely will want to ask help from him whatever it is.
Beggar Union has been under QF then and being opponents, MRF is unlikely to want to infiltrate the union.

TO MRF, he is the Yan Empire crown prince. Marrying Xixia princess seems to be of equal status.

what if instead of seeking help from DY, it was more of using DY as a puppet via WYY?

If MRF was abit smarter, he would had entered an alliance with Beggar Sect while Wang Jiantong was still leader-which was my point. It's very weird that whatever he did, he always considered if he would look good in front of the wulin, because he was concerned about his reputation which will affect his future plans to rally an army. Well, what better way to improve your reputation by fighting the Khitans?!

[wkeej]

Maybe I am bias. To me, MRF is a proud person. As such, he is unlikely to ask for outside help. His idea of marrying Xixia princess is to gain power himself and hence a way to restore his Yan kingdom.

[Mandred Skavenslayer]

what if instead of seeking help from DY, it was more of using DY as a puppet via WYY?

If MRF was abit smarter, he would had entered an alliance with Beggar Sect while Wang Jiantong was still leader-which was my point. It's very weird that whatever he did, he always considered if he would look good in front of the wulin, because he was concerned about his reputation which will affect his future plans to rally an army. Well, what better way to improve your reputation by fighting the Khitans?!

You underestimate the intelligence of DY and the beggar's guild. DY might be infatuated with WYY but, he would never do anything to harm Dali or its people. So making it very unlikely he would put the future of his Kingdom at risk to aid MRF no matter how much cajoling WYY tried.

Although MRF might have enhanced his reputation by allying with the beggar's guild, convincing them to help him restore the Yan Kingdom was a completely different matter. Could you imagine even Gou Jing convincing the beggar's guild to abandon Song territory and go rebuild a Kingdom that has been dead for 600 years. That would be a very hard sell.

[ToastedRossi]

The premise was that MRF would be fighting alongside them. YTZ wasn't a member to begin with, and that didn't stop them from electing him, did it? HR wasn't a member either. I'm not sure, but YLQ wasn't either.

If becoming the new leader of the Beggar Sect meant he now had a small army, I don't think he would say no. He was willing to go under DYQ and changed his surname. How is leading the number one sect in the wulin any worse than that?

You Tanzhi became the leader of the Beggar Sect only because he was willing to become Quan Guanqing's puppet. I doubt that Murong Fu would be interested in making the trade off; especially since he'd be letting Quan Guanqing call all the shots.

Maybe I am bias. To me, MRF is a proud person. As such, he is unlikely to ask for outside help. His idea of marrying Xixia princess is to gain power himself and hence a way to restore his Yan kingdom.

I'm pretty sure that the fact that the Murongs were descendants of the Emperors of Yan was a secret and that they'd want to keep it that way.