Fascinating connection between kenjutsu and daofa

[Battosai]

Was in conversation with a friend today who's studying Northern Shaolin Long Fist wushu in China (more like Inner Mongolia...), and interesting nugget came up. It appears there's a huge and significant connection between Chinese DaoFa and Kenjutsu. This was rather stumbled upon accidentally by the Japanese scholars who were trying to reconstruct the original Kage-ryu, an extinct style that was very influential back in the day and probably the first recognizable Japanese style. This is all but lost to us today, except for its derivative of Shinkage-ryu.

Enter China. It appears that the Ming military elite was quite taken with kenjutsu and katana during the period of Wa-ko raids all along the southern Chinese coast. They were eventually routed by General Qi, who went to produce one of the most famous military manuals in the Chinese history, Ji Xiao Shin Shu. General Qi inflicted devastating defeat on the Japanese pirates in 1561, capturing nearly 2000 prisoners and destroying their fleet.

Chinese historical records show that during the late 16th century captured Japanese coastal raiders (a.k.a. pirates) had been pressed into service training Chinese troops. General Qi was quite taken with the aggressive sword work of the Japanese members of the Wa-Ko incursions both from a tactical and training point of view. Japanese records suggest that the proponderance of Japanese actually involved in these incursions came from the southern most island in the Japanese islands and I understand there are at least two very aggressive styles that come out of this area. This is often used as the rationale for both his designing a long sword form using a weapon some 6' long, as well as his use of the squad formation he adopted for his troops.

More importantly, important historical references exist in China regards to Kage-ryu! Eureka! A big breakthrough. It appears that General Qi had somehow acquired the Kage-ryu mokuroku (teaching manual) in the process of smashing Japanese pirates and his own military manual shows clear Kage-ryu influence. Thus Qi's manual has been extensively studied by the Japanese scholars trying to reconstruct the original Kage-ryu, the precursor to today's Shinkage-ryu.

This isn't the only prominent Chinese manual featuring kenjutsu or Kage-ryu. There is an illustrated Chinese manual of kenjutsu titled Dan DaoFa Xuan (early 1600s) by Cheng ZongXian, a famous wushu theorist and Ming loyalist. It shows two series of katas, one with 22 steps and another one with 12 steps. The illustrations show people in Chinese fashion, but with what are clearly katana worn uchigatana style with the scabbard thrust through the waist sash, cutting edge upwards. According the text, the katana have an overall length of 5 feet, with blades 3.8' long and handles 1.2' long. Each form is given a Chinese name, but many of the postures clearly resemble standard Japanese forms.

WuBei Zhi, a famous miltiary manual from the Ming military writer Mao YuanYi, also has partial reproductions of Kage-ryu techniques, among other things. WuBei Zhi was an omnibus covering every possible aspect of Chinese warfare and military training.

Culturally, famous Ming scholars like Tang Shunzhi wrote poems about their favorite katana. These men were not fighters, but collectors who appreciated fine craftsmanship. Similarly, the technological skill of Japanese sword smiths was praised by non-literary Ming authors such as Song Yingxing, author of the TianGong kaiWu (an important compendium of engineering knowledge of 17th century China), who wrote that Chinese smiths lacked the ability to duplicate Japanese forging techniques.

The two Chinese styles that were affected by the experience of battling the Japanese pirates were in DaDaoFa and MiaoDaoFa. DaDao is basically a large version of Dao that relies on fast and powerful cuts to overwhelm opponents. MiaoDao is more interesting, in that the sword clearly shows Japanese origin, as it's shaped like no-dachi -- an oversized katana.

I thought this was interesting, so I'm sharing it with you.

[Laviathan]

Great info! I recently read an article by famous martial arts teacher/historian Ma Mingda on Japanese swordsmanship and it's impact on Chinese fighting arts. It was basically what you have written, only a few things I would like to add:

The ancient Chinese sword fighting skills (Warring States Period) at some point in history were learned by the Japanese, while in China the way of the sword were slowly transformed into "sword dancing", the original fighting art was lost, but in Japan it was still preserved.

During the Ming dynasty, General Qi Jiguang began to research Japanese sword skills in order to find a way to defeat the Wako pirates, and the Chinese began to get interested in the Way of the Sword again.

(note: according to my martial arts brother, who is an accomplished swordsman, General Qi never found a way to defeat the Japanese sword, and in the end relied on poison to beat the Wako)

MiaoDao is more interesting, in that the sword clearly shows Japanese origin, as it's shaped like no-dachi -- an oversized katana.

Miaodao IS actually the Japanese no-dachi. The Chinese imitated the Japanse sword but refused to admit this. Because in the Yunnan and Guizhou provinces the Miao people also used a weapon similar to the no-dachi, the Chinese named it Miaodao... It's original Chinese name was actually Wodao (Saber of the Wako).

[CC]

Originally posted by Laviathan
(note: according to my martial arts brother, who is an accomplished swordsman, General Qi never found a way to defeat the Japanese sword, and in the end relied on poison to beat the Wako)

I am curious. Even amongst the japanese, isn't the sword more of a status symbol and secondary weapon amongst the samurai? I am under the impression that the main battlefield weapons were the Yari and Longbow and the katana was more of a backup.

Against an organised Yari force, isn't a katana gang at a disadvantage all else being equal?

[Laviathan]

To CC:

I am not sure, but the Wako were pirates (just think of the Vikings) and they might have fought in a different manner than the samurai (think of knights). When it comes to raidng and plundering, hit and run tactics etc. swords might be more convenient than long weapons I guess.

[SkineePanda]

It is said that the majority of the wako were actually made up of predominantly local bandits colliding with Japanese pirates. The Ming imperial army was crap. Qi Jiguang had to recruit local miners/peasants into his "Qi Family Army" and train them in martial arts to defeat the wako. General Qi later compiled all of China's most effective martial arts styles(weapons and unarmed) into a manual for military use.

Oh yeah, Shaolin actually sent like 40 soldier-monks, armed with iron staffs into battle against the wako. They were eventually slaughtered in a ambush.

[Zhang San Feng]

Originally posted by Laviathan

Miaodao IS actually the Japanese no-dachi. The Chinese imitated the Japanse sword but refused to admit this. Because in the Yunnan and Guizhou provinces the Miao people also used a weapon similar to the no-dachi, the Chinese named it Miaodao... It's original Chinese name was actually Wodao (Saber of the Wako).

thats nonsense...

japanese karate originated from shaolin tiger style, also the japanese katana was originally used in shaolin temple and the idea was taken by the japanese. there are books that show shaolin temple chang dao form (i have some of these books), this style has use of both the japanese katana and wakasi simultaneously, a concept the japanese had to rediscover through miyamoto musashi. since this was one of the earliest styles of dao fa from shaolin temple, it clearly precedes the japanese wa kou, and disproves these theories of chinese stealing japanese martial arts. is it not also known that japanese took the idea of oragami from china, their kama style based on farmers sickles in action, tea ceremony from chinese cha shu, zen from chinese chan.

[Zhang San Feng]

Originally posted by Laviathan

(note: according to my martial arts brother, who is an accomplished swordsman, General Qi never found a way to defeat the Japanese sword, and in the end relied on poison to beat the Wako)

no not true, qi jiguang devised a style using bambo trees with leaves to defeat the wakou sword. also invented qi jia ba qua/xin yi to counter the wakou as well. u can see bias is everywhere, of course the japanese would claim that others use sly tactics and etc, but the facts are that he didnt use poison, how could he possibly use poison in open warfare. (ok, i just got some personal questions to ask now...no offense) been a swordsman means nothing about ur knowledge or wisdom, and whats there to say he is an accomplished swordsman?...there is a large difference between a person who fights with a sword, a person who is obsessed with the sword and one who understands when a sword is needed or not...a true swordsman relies not on his sword, he is the sword, just knowing a few moves or forms means nothing

[Laviathan]

japanese karate originated from shaolin tiger style

To be exact: certain Okinawan karate styles (like Euchi-Ryu) were originated from Fujian Tiger style, while others (Goju for example) were heavily influenced by Fujian White Crane.

also the japanese katana was originally used in shaolin temple and the idea was taken by the japanese

You really confuse me: When did the Shaolin Temple used a "katana" and when did the Japanese "took" the idea?

there are books that show shaolin temple chang dao form (i have some of these books)

Please name the titles, authors, publishers of these books. Are these Mainland China publications?

since this was one of the earliest styles of dao fa from shaolin temple, it clearly precedes the japanese wa kou, and disproves these theories of chinese stealing japanese martial arts.

1. It is academically arguable whether or not the Shaolin Temple was such an important source of martial arts as its' current reputation claims. Apart from the stone tablets telling the story of the Thirteen Cudgel Monks helping Tang Emperor Li Shimin, up untill the late Ming/begin Qing Dynasty there are no sources referring to Shaolin martial arts.

2. I did not claim that the Chinese stole Japanese martial arts, but throughout history there was cultural exchange between the two nations, and especially during the times of General Qi Jiguang the Chinese DID learn Japanese sword styles. General Qi DID include the techniques of the Japanese sword in his war manuels. That IS a FACT. Why do you find it so difficult to accept this?

3. Again: WHEN was the katana practiced in the Shaolin temple? If you do not name a certain era, how can you prove that it "clearly precedes Japanese wako"?

is it not also known that japanese took the idea of oragami from china, their kama style based on farmers sickles in action, tea ceremony from chinese cha shu, zen from chinese chan.

Yes, and is it not a fact that many of these mentioned practices were either lost or deteriorated in China while in Japan they were preserved? That's my whole point: the techniques of the Japanese katana originated from ancient Chinese swordsmanship, but in China it was slowly forgotten untill during the times of General Qi it returned to China.

no not true, qi jiguang devised a style using bambo trees with leaves to defeat the wakou sword. but the facts are that he didnt use poison, how could he possibly use poison in open warfare.

Yes, Qi Jiguang used bamboo trees to defeat the Wako sword, but how come these trees were so lethal? Because the leaves were POISONED.

also invented qi jia ba qua/xin yi to counter the wakou as well

Bagua was brought into the open by Dong Haichuan, Xinyi by Ji Longfeng. What has Qi Jiguang anything to do with it?

been a swordsman means nothing about ur knowledge or wisdom, and whats there to say he is an accomplished swordsman?...there is a large difference between a person who fights with a sword, a person who is obsessed with the sword and one who understands when a sword is needed or not...a true swordsman relies not on his sword, he is the sword, just knowing a few moves or forms means nothing

Look, I am sure you are extremely knowledgeable in the field of martial arts. I have only trained for 10 years, having studied Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Choy Li Fut, and currently learning Tongbei, Praying Mantis and Bagua in China. I am still a beginner. But I do have access to a lot of information, living at Beijing University and knowing many martial arts teachers of Mainland China, Taiwan, HK and other parts of the world. I think I can make a rather correct judgement of what's good, and what's not. My martial arts brother has trained Mozi Sword and Mozi Sabre since childhood, and is proficient in Dachengquan, Bajiquan, Praying Mantis and Northern Shaolin. He is completely dedicated to the teachings of Mozi and martial way. To me, he is an accomplished martial artist and swordsman. But that is of course my own personal observation/opinion.

Mind if I ask where you live? If you happened to be in Beijing we can meet up and you can see for yourself.

[Zhang San Feng]

Bagua was brought into the open by Dong Haichuan, Xinyi by Ji Longfeng. What has Qi Jiguang anything to do with it?

yeah i agree, however thats comtemporary ba gua and xinyi...it was believed that original ba gua came from wu dang. also believed that qi jiguang used these styles and put them together to form his own type of it. whether that is completely true or not i m not fully sure.

the book is called Shao Lin Wu Gong, published 1983..author...there are many...think its one of those government books... as for when the chan dao was used i m not certain of exact date, yet i am sure it was prior ming and the wakou. in the book it is the first dao fa shown under the dao, jian, gun section. this cant gurantee its date but can definitely gurantee it is a shaolin art.

and nope i dont live in bei jing, not even in china..i m in sydney

[Battosai]

Lav is mostly right. I'm surprised at his knowledge of RL kung fu; I thought he was all Lavfiction.

Some random thoughts to various people:

The ancient Chinese sword fighting skills (Warring States Period) at some point in history were learned by the Japanese, while in China the way of the sword were slowly transformed into "sword dancing", the original fighting art was lost, but in Japan it was still preserved.

I'm not sure how much this is relevant to the classical kenjutsu. It's been rather persuasively argued that, along with chukuto (straight swords, the earliest swords in Japan), came Korean-Chinese sword skills. This is opening another can of worms, as the Chinese like to claim everything in East Asia is theirs while Koreans will deny this. I'm of the opinion that sword skills developed concurrently in Korea.

Anyways, the earliest sword skills were probably brought over to Japan during Korea's 3 Kingdoms period, when there was a massive cultural and technological transfer from Korea to Japan. this Chinese-influenced art probably was replaced by native skiills fairly early on, as the Japanese changed into horse archers. There is no real evidence daofa made to Japan, especially since the emergence of first real Japanese sword, tachi, coincided with disunity in China, weakness in Korea and lessening of cultural contacts with the outside in Japan. In any case, the early Japanese samurai were far more like the Mongol warriors than Korean or Chinese ones.

Later development of classical kenjutsu happened in vacuum, without outside influences. Most of it was caused due to the changes in warfare in Japan itself.

Given the fact that daofa wasn't prominent in China at the time of Japan's formative influence (most Song swords recovered have been jian) and that mounted daofa was even less prominent, I would consider any influence from China minor, if that. The early Japanese kenjutsu looked very much like the Mongols, Turks, Arabs and other mounted warriors.

Miaodao IS actually the Japanese no-dachi. The Chinese imitated the Japanse sword but refused to admit this.

Interesting.

I am curious. Even amongst the japanese, isn't the sword more of a status symbol and secondary weapon amongst the samurai? I am under the impression that the main battlefield weapons were the Yari and Longbow and the katana was more of a backup.

We're talking about pirates. Blackbeard wasn't swashbucking in the Caribbean with a pike, was he? It's the same with the Japanese and besides, spears take group training to work. Wako were mostly temporary affairs, rarely working together for long. Swords, which allow for individual prowess, were much a better choice and besides, they were ideal for shipborne combat.

You can look at it either as a testament to the effectiveness of Japanese irregulars that they consistently beat spear-armed heavy infantry of Ming regular army, or as a testament to the ineffectiveness of the Ming regular army.

It is said that the majority of the wako were actually made up of predominantly local bandits colliding with Japanese pirates. The Ming imperial army was crap. Qi Jiguang had to recruit local miners/peasants into his "Qi Family Army" and train them in martial arts to defeat the wako. General Qi later compiled all of China's most effective martial arts styles(weapons and unarmed) into a manual for military use.

Well, it's undoubted, however, that the effective fighting force of the wako were the Japanese fighters. When general Qi defeated them, he captured almost 2000 Japanese prisoners. I agree the Ming troops were crap but so were the wako japanese. These weren't regular troops in Japan, more like ambitious jobless youths with some sword training. Japan was in the full throes of warfare and the Japanese who went out as wako were mostly the crap of the crappest.

Most of the wako came from Kyushu and the samurai in Kyushu were locked in a life and death struggle between Satsuma and Otomo, and only peripheral domains like Ito or Omura sent out wako. To give you an idea, at the same time general Qi was slaughting thousands of pirates, some 40 - 60000 troops clashed and some 20000 were killed in Kyushu, including many of the finest samurai in Satsuma and Otomo domains. Without any exaggeration, most of the good fighting material in a small island like Kyushu were employed at the time.

Also, general Qi's army eventually grew to become the finest portion of the Ming army, almost 100000, and trained in the tactics that he originally devised to fight the wako. The famous spear-cart formation came during this era. His famous book also included kenjutsu skills he got from tortured Japanese prisoners and kage-ryu teaching manual.

[Battosai]

Some random comments:

1. The earliest academically verifiable example of Shaolin Daofa in existence is Chang Daofa, which was invented by Chang ZongYou, and dates back to late 16th century. It's clear that Chang was influenced from the wako. This is so because the only extant manual of this style was written in the early 17th century by his student Wu and the book is called Shou Bi Lu. The manual shows clear Japanese influences.

2. Gah, stupid Shaolin. Shaolin's prominence is very much exaggerated, as is Wudang. Both are more of fiction than reality. Shaolin monks were known for wushu but it's unclear that they had their own quanfa or other unique styles, until at least late-Ming. Even then, it's not clear that Shaolin merely practiced wushu that was popular outside of it, or its wushu of own invention. Shaolin is most definitely not the father of kungfu, nor is Wudang the father of Taijiquan. Or that Shaolin practiced external/hard while Wudang was internal/soft. It wasn't until Qing dynasty that neijia and weijia came into focus, and then as part of anti-Manchu sentiment.

To many Ming patriots, the external style and Shaolin represented foreign Buddhism and the Manchus, while the internal style and Wudang represented Taoism and the Han. By the time of emperor Yongzheng, though, the anti-Shaolin sentiments disappeared and only the neijia and weijia remained, while Shaolin became a symbol of resistance and another headache in mythology, when various secret societies began claiming Shaolin heritage.

[Wai Shing]

You guys got any good english books to recommend (if there are any...) about the history of these arts?
Sounds really interesting...

[Narcis]

If you're looking for a book , search Huang Chao Li Qi Tu Shi .I think that their is an english translation.

Sorry to "awake" this subject, but it's the only on I have found on the internet about the similarities of some chinese art of the sword and japanese kenjutsu.
I'm french, i'm going to travel to china in 2010, and i'm looking for the name of a chinese martial art using the wodao (saber of wa).

I have find pigua zhan for miao dao, but its wodao that interressed me...
can you help me please in my research

[Shi-Potian]

This thread is funny from my point of view we have a totally pro china guy debating with a totally pro japan guy and stuck in the middle is a guy on the fence!

[CC]

We're talking about pirates. Blackbeard wasn't swashbucking in the Caribbean with a pike, was he? It's the same with the Japanese and besides, spears take group training to work. Wako were mostly temporary affairs, rarely working together for long. Swords, which allow for individual prowess, were much a better choice and besides, they were ideal for shipborne combat.

You can look at it either as a testament to the effectiveness of Japanese irregulars that they consistently beat spear-armed heavy infantry of Ming regular army, or as a testament to the ineffectiveness of the Ming regular army.

I wonder how the fights took place. As raiders, the Wako probably got to choose the time and place. But if their bases were attacked by the Ming Army, a force armed with polearms/spears and crossbows would have to be REALLY crap to be defeated by sword armed pirates even if the swords were all forged by Hattori Hanzo.

[Wu Xing]

You guys got any good english books to recommend (if there are any...) about the history of these arts?
Sounds really interesting...

I believe you will find "Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey" by Brian Kennedy and Elizabeth Guo to be a good source of information with (relatively) solid historical information. I only read a few pages of this book so I cannot say a lot out of it. However, it looks quite good to me.

I have find pigua zhan for miao dao, but its wodao that interressed me...
can you help me please in my research

I don't know much about wodao. However, from what I heard, Long Fist (Changquan) and Xingyiquan both include many weapon trainings. You may find something interesting by looking into the goodies of these two styles.


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Also, from what I learned & heard,

1. Miaodao, "invented" by general Qi Jiguang, was based on Japanese sword

2. Many martial art masters who did some study on Chinese martial art history in academic level (not just by listening without any "evidence") mostly agree that Shaolin "martial art" was not famous for blade weapons. Shaolin staff was probably the most famous Shaolin weapon. One serious+famous scholar-type martial art master said that Shaolin didn't have blade weapons like there is no missle (or weapons used in war) in Catholic church (or something like that...cannot remember the exact words).

3. The reason that general Qi Jiguang had to recruit local miners/peasants into his "Qi Family Army" and train them in martial arts to defeat the wako is because the Ming army (from the Northern China) was not useful in Southern China (the location of battle) because they were not familiar with location (weather, terrian, etc.).

4. Chinese saber (Dao) was influenced by middle east curve-blade weapon ("maybe" scimitar, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scimitar ). I also heard that European saber was also influenced by middle east curve-blade weapon as well. So, it is possible that the influence of this middle east weapon passed through China to its neighbor such as Korea, Japan, etc.

Lately, I start practicing both Kenjutsu/Iaijutsu and Chinese Saber (Dao). Also, I did have a little experience with Russian sword training (from a part of Systema training). I found that the way to make the cuts using Russian sword is pretty much the same way as I learn from Chinese Dao. Of course, there are always many different things such as the locations of the hand on the handles of both weapons (limited to the styles that I learn) are different.

Also, many techniques from the Kenjutsu are "similar" to Chinese Dao but they are not necessary the same. The "tactics" of both styles that I learn seem to be different which could come from my (both) teachers' personality & experience. Probably it depends on "styles" as well since Kenjutsu/Dao that I'm learning is not necessarily the same as other Kenjutsu/Dao styles. The funny part is that I found that the "cutting" method that I learn from Dao *in certain aspect* is closer to Kenjutsu than the method that I learn from Miao dao (Note: Miao dao and Japanese sword look "pretty much" the same). However, since my martial art knowledge keep evolving, I may find more interesting things in the future.

[Narcis]

Here some information about difference betwin Miao Dao, Zhanmadao and Wodao, with mensurations of this differents blades. Maybe it could help to find the name of styls...
http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/photo5.html

[kyss of the sword]

the progression of martial arts in any place or era was significant ater a new style was encountered. a necessity is created for the improvement of martial arts. take Brazilian jujitsu or combat sambo from Russia, Brazilian jujitsu was refined from several schools of jujitsu with other types of martial arts and is being constantly refined through practice and experimentation. combat sambo was created by the study of over 200 styles of martial arts to create a powerful combat use fighting style. jeet kwan do as well. martial arts in the past were created in the same manner. in martial arts, stealing doesn't exist, just learning, creating and improvement.