HSDS Phrase, an exaggeration?

[rabadi]

My memory of HSDS is very much rusty, I only read the novel once and it was years ago when I was still in Secondary School, and it was of course the translated 1st unrevised version of the novel that I read, so please help me here and pardon me if I make any mistakes. Anyway, from Meh's Translation of HSDS, here is a quote:

"'Martial world's most venerable, Prized saber dragon slaying*, Controlling all under Heaven, None dares to not follow!' Have you heard this phrase?"

*Note: The proper translation of the 'Dragon Saber' is the 'Dragon Slaying Saber'. However, I will use the more popular(and shorter :P) translation, 'Dragon Saber', that TVB came up.

Yu DaiYan chuckles and says, "Of course I've heard it. There are two more phrases after this, something like 'Power of heaven* not appear, Who can possibly compete?' That's just to describe an event many years ago, not really some saber." That old man asks, "What event?"

*Note: 'Power of heaven' here is used to described the name of the Heaven Sword. Actually, a proper description of those two characters is 'reliance on heaven', but that wouldn't sound as good. The sword's is therefore more aptly translated as 'the sword that relies on the power of the heavens'. But for this translation, it will be shortened to Heaven Saber, just to match up with the name that TVB came up with.

People in HSDS sort of believed that when they got hold of the Heaven Sword and the Dragon Saber, they would *rule* the world. Now, my question is whether this is actually an exaggeration? What were contained in both weapons actually? Yue Fei's manual of war and summarized 9 Yin plus 18 Dragon Subduing Palm, if I am not mistaken. True, if you are a king or have a large army, you can probably read Yue Fei's manual and lead *unbeatable* forces to conquer the world, but what if you have no connection whatsoever to any king or any army? While some may argue that 9 Yin is an advanced martial art technique (our fellow SPCNet member Son of Light might even argue that 9 Yin is invincible j/k ), but in HSDS era itself there were interesting techniques like 9 Yang, QKDNY, Taichi, etc. So, having 9 Yin *may not* necessarily make someone unbeatable in the martial art world at the time. 18 Dragon Subduing Palm is one of my favourite technique in JY's universe (you can tell XF and GJ are my favourite characters as well ), but it is also not invincible. So, let me repeat, is this HSDS phrase actually an exaggeration?

[rabadi]

Originally posted by rabadi
...but in HSDS era itself there were interesting techniques like 9 Yang, QKDNY, Taichi, etc.

Okay, the examples here are probably not too correct, because not many people initially knew about 9 Yang, no previous Ming Clan leader mastered QKDNY perfectly, and Taichi was not introduced into the novel until later on, but anyway I hope you get the point.

[Suet Seung]

I think Since Wong Yung and Gwok Jing died at trying to save their country, and they knew the mongols will eventually succeed, so before they died they had to put the Yue Fei's war tactics and martial arts in the weapons hoping for....a hero who had the leadership potential to step up and lead a fairly large group of people against the Mongolians. With the contents of the Heaven Sword and Dragon Sabre, that person who has the respect of the people in mo lam to lead a battle against the invasions of mongols or any others who were attacking .

I don't think you had to be an emperor or have any connections with an emperor or official army to use what was in the two sword and sabre. Just the leadership and the heroic patriotism to carry out Wong yung and Gwok Jing's dying wishes...or hopes by leading the people in mo lam or go speak with the current emperor to give some soldiers to fight against the mongols.

Well....thats what I think...I could be wrong..

[Han Solo]

The whole concept of hiding the manuscripts in the sword and the saber is just plain dumb.

HR who is so smart, turn to such a stupid way to preserve GJ's martial and military progeny.

Isn't there another easier way of preserving the manuscripts? like sending it to YG or even pass it to GX and ask her to go to a safe place?

[duguxiaojing]

how would that make an epic story though. Sealing some of the greatest martial arts and a war tactic into two seemingly unbeatable weapons seems more exciting than "pass it to GX and ask her to go to a safe place" besides alot of things in HSDS arent really realistic

[ToOn99]

Originally posted by Han Solo
The whole concept of hiding the manuscripts in the sword and the saber is just plain dumb.

HR who is so smart, turn to such a stupid way to preserve GJ's martial and military progeny.

Isn't there another easier way of preserving the manuscripts? like sending it to YG or even pass it to GX and ask her to go to a safe place?

how could Huang Rong get YG's Sword ? If I can speculate, Huang Rong had offered YG the task to preserve GJ's martial arts. Unfortunately, YG was so selfish, after learning GJ's martial arts he changed his mind and went living in seclusion with his beautiful wife.
Most likely, YG had learned 9Yin jen jing from GJ after the end of ROCH.

I think Huang Rong also had anticipated if she gave GX the manuscripts, she might end up like GPL (fighting the monggolian till death comes)

or JY made Huang Rong stupid purposely in order to create new idea for the last piece of trilogy

[Dirt]

Well, the Heaven Sword did go to Guo Xiang and the Dragon Sabre was to go to her brother, but, he died.

[philip]

Isn't there another easier way of preserving the manuscripts? like sending it to YG or even pass it to GX and ask her to go to a safe place?

i know! i've always wondered why GJ & HR didn't just teach 9 yin to GX and Yue Fei's manual onto GPL rather than give them some stupid weapons that cannot take full effect unless clashed together....

I think Huang Rong also had anticipated if she gave GX the manuscripts, she might end up like GPL (fighting the monggolian till death comes)

if GX really was determined to stay, she wouldv'e stayed w/ or w/o those manuals. if she was determined to leave, no manuals are going to hold her back

[CC]

Originally posted by Suet Seung
I think Since Wong Yung and Gwok Jing died at trying to save their country, and they knew the mongols will eventually succeed, so before they died they had to put the Yue Fei's war tactics and martial arts in the weapons hoping for....a hero who had the leadership potential to step up and lead a fairly large group of people against the Mongolians. With the contents of the Heaven Sword and Dragon Sabre, that person who has the respect of the people in mo lam to lead a battle against the invasions of mongols or any others who were attacking .

I don't think you had to be an emperor or have any connections with an emperor or official army to use what was in the two sword and sabre. Just the leadership and the heroic patriotism to carry out Wong yung and Gwok Jing's dying wishes...or hopes by leading the people in mo lam or go speak with the current emperor to give some soldiers to fight against the mongols.

Well....thats what I think...I could be wrong..

Well its still an exageration. GJ had WY brains plus the war manual plus help from Wulin heroes plus some part of the Song army plus 9 yin plus 18 Dragon Palms etc etc but he still couldn't really do either.

[tape]

Heh yeah what CC said, its clearly an exaggeration. If those manuals were really that great, then GJ and WY would not have to hide them/die in the first place, because they technically should have been able to destroy the Mongolians. I'm wondering who spread that poem though, because it seems kind of counter productive for GJ and WY to spread a poem that would make everyone kill for those weapons, and then handing those two weapons to their own children. However, if it was not them two, who else would know about the secret? Yeah, the story behind these two weapons really dont make too much sense :P

[Ken Cheng]

Originally posted by Han Solo
Isn't there another easier way of preserving the manuscripts? like sending it to YG or even pass it to GX and ask her to go to a safe place?

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Gwok Jing and Wong Yung couldn't find Yeung Gor, and Gwok Seung, at that stage of her development, probably couldn't protect the Heaven Sword for long.

Additionally, when Gwok Jing and Wong Yung put the 9 Yum Jen Ging and Hong Lung 18 Palms manuals within the Heaven Sword, those were indeed among the best martial arts techniques in the world. They didn't anticipate that a century later, several new and at least equally good techniques would also emerge.

[ToOn99]

not really exaggerated though! In the end of HSDS, Chu Yuan Zhang (not really sure about the pin yin)lead Ming cult soldier defeated monggolian army using Yue Fei's War Manual and established Ming Dinasty.
Why GJ and HR couldnt do it, bcos they didn't have the resources that Chu Yuan Zhang had.

[rabadi]

What was Zhu Yuang Zhang (Chu Yuan-Chang)'s rank when he was a member of the Ming Clan?

[ToOn99]

If I am not mistaken, he was one of the flag squad leaders.

[CC]

Bah, they didn't practice what they preached if the poem conveyed their intentions.

The heaven sword was to stop a despotic or useless emperor who abused the Dragon sabre, so GJ should have just went with his buddy ZBT to kick the Song Emperor's butt off the Dragon Throne.

Heck it would be poetic. Using the Dragon Slaying Palms to overthrow the Dragon.

And the Dog Beating Stick is perfect for whacking those corrupt officials.

[philip]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. Gwok Jing and Wong Yung couldn't find Yeung Gor, and Gwok Seung, at that stage of her development, probably couldn't protect the Heaven Sword for long.

well, they had a chance to get the iron sword from YG and a chance to give the heavenly sword to GX